Author Topic: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020  (Read 108946 times)

Dusk Patrol

  • Peahi Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 808
  • PNW
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
« Reply #105 on: October 18, 2019, 04:17:10 PM »
^ Bob, man, be reasonable, you need a Tesla pickup truck...
Bullet V2; RS 14x26; New Deal 9'6; BluePlanet 9'4

rbgar

  • Sunset Status
  • ****
  • Posts: 286
    • View Profile
Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
« Reply #106 on: October 18, 2019, 05:21:23 PM »

FRP

  • Bob
  • Sunset Status
  • ****
  • Posts: 386
    • View Profile
Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
« Reply #107 on: October 18, 2019, 06:40:43 PM »
Perhaps a bit more futuristic!

https://images.app.goo.gl/KKU43JSRYfWQ6NSB7
« Last Edit: October 18, 2019, 06:42:22 PM by FRP »
Sunova 8'10" Speeed
Sunova 8’7” Creek
Werner Nitro Carbon
KeNalu Konihi 84 adjustable
Kialoa Pipes II

"The time spent surfing is time that is added to my life" “In the ocean we are all connected”
Anon

Quickbeam

  • Peahi Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 943
    • View Profile
Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
« Reply #108 on: November 04, 2019, 10:47:12 PM »
A friend of a friend has a Tesla and loves her car. However, she recently took her car on a cold weather trip and had a very unpleasant experience. I don’t know all the details, but my friend told me the battery was losing its’ charge very quickly. Apparently they very nearly didn’t make their destination. She said the car handled really well in the snow, but the battery drain was significant.

I did a bit of looking online and found this (https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/06/aaa-confirms-what-tesla-bmw-nissan-ev-owners-suspected-of-cold-weather.html). It says in 20 degree weather (Farenheit), when using climate control, electric vehicles will lose an average of 41 percent of their range. Apparently Tesla disputes these findings, but from what my friend said, this sounds pretty accurate.

I suppose one could argue that the Tesla owner (my friends’ friend) should have known about this ahead of time, but this sounds like it could possibly be a pretty serious limitation to electric cars, at least in colder climates.
ONE SUP Edge Pro 12' 6" x 22"
ONE SUP Evo 12’ 6” x 24”
Infinity Whiplash 12' 6" x 24 1/2"
ONE SUP Evo 12’ 6” x 26”
Bark Competitor 12’ 6” x 29”
Red Paddle Explorer (Inflatable) 13' 2" x 30
Red Paddle Race (Inflatable) 12’ 6” x 30”

ZRE Power Surge ZX4, Kevlar braided shaft (75”)

eastbound

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 2898
    • View Profile
Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
« Reply #109 on: November 05, 2019, 03:10:03 AM »
it is a fact that batteries dont like cold
Portal Barra 8'4"
Sunova Creek 8'7"
Starboard Pro Blue Carbon  8'10"
KeNalu Mana 82, xTuf, ergoT

PonoBill

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 22907
    • View Profile
Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
« Reply #110 on: November 05, 2019, 07:10:07 AM »
Teslas (and actually all production EVs) have a temperature control system for the batteries. In general, it doesn't take much power and when the car is operating, even in very cold weather the power to the motor generates enough heat to keep the batteries warm though the heater might run to keep the temperature optimal. The big limitation for Lithium batteries in cold climates is that you can't charge the battery when it's internal temperature is below 32F (0C) or dendrites will form that damage the cells. You also don't want to charge the cells when they are above 140C. It's not a problem if it's sitting in a hot or a freezing cold garage connected to the charger--the temperature control system will just run as necessary. And you can use the battery below 0C, you just can't charge it. If you connect a Tesla to a charger while the battery is too hot or cold it will run the temperature control system for a few minutes until the battery can be charged, then charge it. 

It's more likely that the climate control system used the power--it's electric of course, and it takes a lot of energy to heat a car in cold weather. They aren't well insulated and are in a constant 60+ mph wind. With all the glass in a Tesla I wouldn't be surprised that the heater is sucking a lot of range. We haven't noticed it in the cold in Hood River, but it hasn't been extremely cold. The Tesla cabin heater is a resistance element. It's a 4KWH load at maximum output. They probably also had the seat heaters on but that's a pretty small load, I doubt it's more than 1KWH for both seat on full. Some EVs use the AC system as a heat pump, which would be a little more efficient, but heat pumps don't work below about 30F so they need resistance heating elements as well. Fo a five-hour trip that would be somewhere in the neighborhood of 25KWH which would be about 25 percent of the range of a 100KWH battery.

An internal combustion car generates a vast amount of heat--70 percent or more of the energy generated by burning fuel is rejected as heat. So all you need to do to have all the heat you want is redirect it to the cabin heater instead of the radiator.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2019, 07:22:47 AM by PonoBill »
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

eastbound

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 2898
    • View Profile
Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
« Reply #111 on: November 05, 2019, 07:45:31 AM »
well explained---thx
Portal Barra 8'4"
Sunova Creek 8'7"
Starboard Pro Blue Carbon  8'10"
KeNalu Mana 82, xTuf, ergoT

Quickbeam

  • Peahi Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 943
    • View Profile
Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
« Reply #112 on: November 05, 2019, 07:59:09 AM »
Teslas (and actually all production EVs) have a temperature control system for the batteries. In general, it doesn't take much power and when the car is operating, even in very cold weather the power to the motor generates enough heat to keep the batteries warm though the heater might run to keep the temperature optimal. The big limitation for Lithium batteries in cold climates is that you can't charge the battery when it's internal temperature is below 32F (0C) or dendrites will form that damage the cells. You also don't want to charge the cells when they are above 140C. It's not a problem if it's sitting in a hot or a freezing cold garage connected to the charger--the temperature control system will just run as necessary. And you can use the battery below 0C, you just can't charge it. If you connect a Tesla to a charger while the battery is too hot or cold it will run the temperature control system for a few minutes until the battery can be charged, then charge it. 

It's more likely that the climate control system used the power--it's electric of course, and it takes a lot of energy to heat a car in cold weather. They aren't well insulated and are in a constant 60+ mph wind. With all the glass in a Tesla I wouldn't be surprised that the heater is sucking a lot of range. We haven't noticed it in the cold in Hood River, but it hasn't been extremely cold. The Tesla cabin heater is a resistance element. It's a 4KWH load at maximum output. They probably also had the seat heaters on but that's a pretty small load, I doubt it's more than 1KWH for both seat on full. Some EVs use the AC system as a heat pump, which would be a little more efficient, but heat pumps don't work below about 30F so they need resistance heating elements as well. Fo a five-hour trip that would be somewhere in the neighborhood of 25KWH which would be about 25 percent of the range of a 100KWH battery.

An internal combustion car generates a vast amount of heat--70 percent or more of the energy generated by burning fuel is rejected as heat. So all you need to do to have all the heat you want is redirect it to the cabin heater instead of the radiator.

Thanks for the explanation.
ONE SUP Edge Pro 12' 6" x 22"
ONE SUP Evo 12’ 6” x 24”
Infinity Whiplash 12' 6" x 24 1/2"
ONE SUP Evo 12’ 6” x 26”
Bark Competitor 12’ 6” x 29”
Red Paddle Explorer (Inflatable) 13' 2" x 30
Red Paddle Race (Inflatable) 12’ 6” x 30”

ZRE Power Surge ZX4, Kevlar braided shaft (75”)

Admin

  • Administrator
  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 4888
    • View Profile
    • StandUpZone
    • Email
Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
« Reply #113 on: November 07, 2019, 12:17:44 PM »
We will get a look at the upcoming Tesla truck soon, assuming he means Nov 21st 2019.

https://www.theverge.com/2019/11/6/20951616/tesla-cybertruck-electric-pickup-reveal

Bean

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 4043
    • View Profile
Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
« Reply #114 on: November 08, 2019, 06:51:59 AM »
The teaser image resembles a traditional, (long) pick-up truck hood, but I will be highly disappointed if it is not a cab-forward design...

PonoBill

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 22907
    • View Profile
Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
« Reply #115 on: November 08, 2019, 09:59:12 AM »
Tesla loves frunks. I'd be surprised if it didn't have one. In theory, they sound great, in practice, I've never used it. I don't think Diane has either. A standard model S has so much room in the back that we just never think to use it. There's an "under trunk" in the back that I've also never used. Every so often I lift it up and say "oh, yeah, that's what that is" and then close it and forget about it. Insane amount of cargo space for a five passenger luxury sedan.

I'd preorder the pickup sight unseen with max everything if they'd let me. I know that makes me sound like a fanboy, but it's exactly what I wanted when I paid 60K for my Ford F350. I could avoid my project to make a rat Tesla Model S surfwagon. $40K more (got to be at least $100K for the 500 mile version) to never stop at a gas station again, tow any load I could ever imagine, carry all my shit and blow the doors off Porches? I'm in.

I've been playing with their battery modules from a wrecked 100D for six months now, and it's a constant source of inspiration. My plan for the spring is to buy one or two wrecked Tesla Model S's and a roof full of PV if power-hungry Californians don't drive the price to the stratosphere.  I'd love to use the model 3 packs, but no one has been able to reverse engineer the BMS system yet to build massive powerwall systems. One of the sharpest and most experienced guys in that biz calls the Model 3 BMS system "witchcraft".

Ready for the zombie apocalypse. I've calculated loads at my shop. With the PV system I plan, and even just 100KWH of storage I can run my shop and charge one Tesla Model S or maybe the truck. With 200 KWH of storage and a little more PV I can charge two Teslas, and switch my heating and cooling for the entire shop to heat pumps with lots of room to spare. I might get sensible and do the single powerwall, but what's the fun in that? At current prices, it's about a 20-year payback (I'll be 92 and senile, so I won't be able to appreciate the benefit), and that's with me doing most of the work and building powerwalls for somewhere in the range of $10K each, including car, housing, BMS and inverters. I'll get a lot of other good stuff out of the cars but the market for Tesla bits sucks. Most of them are under some form of warranty and there is so little that goes wrong that there just isn't much of a market. Maybe I'll drop a Tesla motor in the dunebuggy. The powerwalls would be more than $100K each from the sources I know about, but I don't have to make a profit, market and support the things. Big advantage of not caring about making a biz out of it. Living in the Pacific Northwest makes solar and batteries more of a labor of exploration than a rational choice. Almost anywhere else it turns around pretty quickly, in Maui my system paid itself off in 6+ years, though it's grid-tied with no powerwall. But certainly, as a lot of Californians have recently discovered, "God bless the chile what's got his own".

I'm also going to build an inverter TIG welder with one module. 56 pounds, 7.14KWH. I tested it with a simplified two-module rig running DC and I could pull 300 amps at 46 V to weld some 5/8" steel plate and hardly warmed the modules. No surprise, they often pull 1200Amps in the cars at full acceleration but still, there was less than two degrees change on the internal thermocouples. I need AC for aluminum and I want variable frequency, pulsing, adjustable waveform and electrode cleaning/penetration bias, so I'll have to mash it up with a standard TIG inverter. But a 70-pound full-featured 250 amp portable TIG would be a big deal for me. My old 250 amp transformer TIG takes a hefty forklift to lift it.

As I said, lots of inspiration in this tech.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2019, 10:14:26 AM by PonoBill »
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

SUPJorge

  • Sunset Status
  • ****
  • Posts: 436
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
« Reply #116 on: November 11, 2019, 06:49:03 AM »
Has anyone heard anything about this Polestar 2? 
https://www.polestar.com/us/cars/polestar-2
Any thoughts?
14' SIC Bullet V2 - 9'1" Naish Hokua X32 LE

PonoBill

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 22907
    • View Profile
Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
« Reply #117 on: November 11, 2019, 08:33:50 AM »
Well, Polestar means Volvo is in the mix with specs a little lower than a 2012 Tesla Model S for about $65K. Hard to get super excited about it but good to see more players.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

Admin

  • Administrator
  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 4888
    • View Profile
    • StandUpZone
    • Email
Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
« Reply #118 on: November 11, 2019, 08:50:27 AM »
Well, Polestar means Volvo is in the mix with specs a little lower than a 2012 Tesla Model S for about $65K. Hard to get super excited about it but good to see more players.

Wouldn't it be a tighter comparison to the upcoming model Y with Dual motors?  They are saying $45,000 for a later release base model.

This looks more like a crossover style thing, but It would have been awesome as a wagon. 

It is a handsome vehicle.  In terms of yeeeow appeal, Tesla has been pretty lackluster with the S being the exception.  It will be interesting to see if Musk really does break loose a little on the truck.  I hope so!

« Last Edit: November 11, 2019, 08:58:14 AM by Admin »

PonoBill

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 22907
    • View Profile
Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
« Reply #119 on: November 11, 2019, 10:41:35 AM »
Well, it's face certainly looks happy.

I agree that the 3 is not the coolest looking car ever, and the Y looks like a fat 3. The X is stupid. The two style winners are the S and the Roadster. Right now though, the names of the game are: How many 3's can they sell in China (millions?), when will they build batteries there (very fucking soon) and will they be Maxell dry tech (Yes--a big deal--far more production in less space with no drying ovens), and what kind of preorders do they get from the pickup truck. If the preorder is huge it may stop Ford, and to a lesser degree GM and Dodge truck sales in their tracks.

The geezers on the Autoweek streaming show think the traditional truck buyers won't go for them, it will be new buyers. That means the traditional buyers will be all over these things since these people have been consistently and dependably wrong.

It's going to get weird.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2019, 10:43:17 AM by PonoBill »
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.