Author Topic: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020  (Read 11268 times)

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Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2019, 01:27:56 AM »
I dig Tesla but right now they are essentially a luxury brand ($80K + starting prices) with one more moderately priced Sedan https://www.caranddriver.com/tesla .  The Model 3 is a terrific vehicle but, sedan.  Even Ford is over those :).  The model Y is a cool design but looks too small for boards in back (unless we start to get much better).  I really wish that they were doing an Outback sized vehicle.  So, the truck may be the first one that really does it.  Let's hope they give it a little more grit than the computer images. 

Badger

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Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2019, 04:34:11 AM »
I hate sedans. Every car should be a station wagon IMO, no matter what the size. It's much more practical.
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PonoBill

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Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2019, 07:03:17 AM »
I consider the Model 3 to be fairly goofy--why isn't it a hatchback? I realize not many folks take a Sawzall to their new car but that's what I'd do if I had one. Take the back seat out and remove the divider between the trunk and cab. Utility first. I saw a youtube video about a young lady who turned a model S into a pickup. I got kind of excited about that (like I need another project) but then came to my senses. I need tow capacity, the Tesla S doesn't have it.
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Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2019, 07:56:47 AM »
Pono

Yes the Tesla 3 would be much better as a hatchback. I am awaiting the Y. It looks like Tesla is continuing to push the technology with a simplified wiring that will decrease the amount required by an order of magnitude. No one has mentioned
the eKona as a surf vehicle. We test drove one in the spring and were impressed. The surfboards would need to go on the roof rack. Reports of up to 500 km range for this small SUV are enticing.

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Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2019, 11:33:29 AM »
Yeah, the wiring tech Tesla is implementing is very cool stuff. I'm doing the DIY version in my motorhome, using MQQT and CanBus to eliminate the rat's nest that GMC installed in 1978 and some goofball restoration shop added horrifically to. All the DC switching for lights, water pump, air compressor for the suspension bags, etc. is being locally controlled at the device with an ESP32 microcontroller so it can be switched with a pushbutton at the device, wirelessly with a smartphone or remotely from the dash or control center wirelessly. It sounds like a stupid way to do something you can do equally well with a little wire and a cheap switch, but hey: Geek.

But given the wad of wiring I've taken out of the moho compared to just providing 12V to the devices, it's pretty elegant. The only exception is tail lights, brake lights, and turn indicators, and I was sorely tempted there as well, but reason prevailed.

Of course, if I ever sell this thing the new owner will be buying a whole bunch of exotic shit with minimal documentation and my crappy spaghetti code. Good luck future dude.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2019, 11:35:45 AM by PonoBill »
Ponohouse is for sale: http://www.ponohouse.com
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

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Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2019, 08:18:15 AM »
Whew!  I watched this all the way through and these Rivians are super impressive.  The specs and capabilities are awesome.  The little details are right there as well.  Check out the tailgate and racking system at the end. 


Bean

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Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2019, 08:37:22 AM »
And then there is Bollinger. 


SUPJorge

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Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
« Reply #22 on: August 26, 2019, 10:52:58 AM »
Pono, and any one else, I have a couple of questions and comments:

(1) Why the press on being all-electric. Wouldn't it be more practical to go hybrid, that way you can use the existing gas station infrastructure and no more range anxiety.

(2) I read somewhere that, although they don't have transmissions, Teslas actually do have more than one gear. As explained, the gear ratios are different for the front and rear wheels and the computer distributes fore/aft power differently at different speeds, effectively providing different gearing at different driving conditions.
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PonoBill

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Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
« Reply #23 on: August 26, 2019, 12:30:46 PM »
1. Hybrid is an intermediate solution, and like most such things includes the worst of both solutions spiced with a little taste of the best. The maintenance and complexity of internal combustion added to the limited range of small batteries and the weight of two drivetrains multiplied by the expense of both. They will probably die faster than pure ICE. Don't get me wrong, I see the benefit of ownership--we have a Chevy Volt in Maui that both Diane and I think is a really great car. But GMC had no way to make money with the Volt, so they killed it. Prius is the only really successful hybrid, and it achieves success with an amazing level of suckiness. Ride in a new Prius and your reaction will be "well, this doesn't suck as much as the early Prius". Ride in a new Model S or Model 3--even the base level--and your reaction is "Holy shit."

Range anxiety is a function of available chargers and charge rate. Having a charger available halfway through your trip that charges at 10KWH and therefore takes eight and a half hours to charge your car doesn't solve anxiety unless it's at a hotel and it's time for bed.   The current supercharger network mitigates that and will ultimately be much more efficient than carrying an entire gasoline-powered generator that displaces the larger battery that would solve the issue in 99 percent of the cases. If people were rational they would buy an electric car that suits the 99 percent use case and rent a vehicle for those rare long trips. But people aren't rational. That's why Tesla builds cars that make you say "Holy shit, this is awesome" rather than "Gee whiz, this suits all my potential uses but it's gutless and ugly". The supercharger network is getting a massive and relatively inexpensive (compared to building them in the first place) upgrade to 250KWH per charger. That's 1000 miles per hour of charge. Of course, you can't store that much, but that's what it is. Full charge for a 100KW car in 24 minutes. And no one charges to full power, so it's actually 85% in 21 minutes. And few people come in with no charge remaining, it's usually more like 40% left, charging to 85% which is ten minutes--pretty much what it takes to visit a gas station.

2. Actually, the dual-motor Model 3 has different motors front and rear. Not just different ratios but different underlying physics. Reluctance vs. Induction. They have a single-speed gear reduction, but I don't know if the ratios are different. Current Model S and X cars have single-speed gear reduction, 9.34:1 in the small drive units that go in the front of dual motor Teslas or the rear of the lowest spec Model S. The bigger motor rear-drive gear ratio is 9.73:1 in the dual motor and higher spec single motor S/X. Yes, the computer constantly shifts the balance of power applied to the front or rear of dual motor units to get the highest efficiency for a given speed and throttle setting, but it's not just the gear ratios, it's the size and performance characteristics of the motors. The dual-motor cars actually have better range/KWH than single motor despite having a lot more horsepower available--like almost double. Diane's grocery-getter five-passenger extended-range Model S has 642 horsepower and 585 ft-lbs of torque. The performance version is about 715.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2019, 12:38:13 PM by PonoBill »
Ponohouse is for sale: http://www.ponohouse.com
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

pdxmike

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Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
« Reply #24 on: August 26, 2019, 04:13:41 PM »
Haven't seen anything to replace my Element, but at the same time electric seems to be progressing more than fast enough to make me feel like I'd regret buying any gas car now.  So just need the Element to hold on for another couple years, which seems fine considering it's basically faultless.


As of the moment, I like the BMW i8, not because it'd be good for boards, but because they put a photo of my dog with one on their BMWi instagram page today that's getting thousands of likes every hour.  Hopefully they'll give my dog a new one.

SUPJorge

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Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
« Reply #25 on: August 26, 2019, 04:23:40 PM »
Bill,

Thanks for the reply. I appreciate it. I asked broad question, so your reply appropriately paints with a broad brush.

To refine a couple of points: I can appreciate that "If people were rational they would buy an electric car that suits the 99 percent use case and rent a vehicle for those rare long trips. But people aren't rational." But I think I'm a pretty rational guy. Last time I was in a Prius I thought it was a damn fine car, and I drive a Cayenne, but the 6-cylinder one, and that VW bus looks super -- but then again I don't race Peyote in my spare time.

I live in Miami, and my commute, which is 90% of my driving, is 25 miles opposite traffic, perfect for a Tesla. But its the other 10% that requires I maintain excess range capacity. The closest waves are 100-200 miles away, on the interstate. When surf is up, usually because a storm is brushing by (Go Dorian!), the routine is up before dawn, drive north between 100-200 miles to find the right break, park at the beach, surf until sundown and then limp the same distance home. I can't really be renting a car to do this. I've concluded that I either have to keep what I have, jump into a hybrid, despite the compromises you eloquently listed, or wait (how many years?) until all the gas stations are replaced with superchargers. Am I wrong? Is there a better solution? Also, do you expect that supercharger stations will be built next to existing gas stations, or will there be a period where a station will sell you both gas and a charge?

Jorge


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PonoBill

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Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
« Reply #26 on: August 26, 2019, 07:56:01 PM »
The concentration of supercharger stations in Florida is ridiculous, surpassed only by a few other places. If I were you I'd by a used Model S for about 30-40K that has lifetime free supercharging (Any Tesla bought before September 2018) and never worry about gasoline again. Charge in your garage every night and wake up with a full "tank". Never stop at a gas station again. Yes, the lifetime free supercharging goes with the car. People are starting to realize that and are grabbing them up. Imagine buying a used Celica that came with free fillups for life. You'd keep that forever. There is a four-station 120KW supercharger on Marathon! You are surrounded by them, you just don't know about them. Del Rey beach, 35 superchargers at 72 KWH, West Palm, 9 superchargers, 120KW, Aventura, 36 superchargers, 72 KW. Between Miami and Cocoa beach, there are nine supercharger locations, and three in Miami.

All up and down the east coast, you can't get more than about a hundred miles from a Supercharger. With a few moments of planning, you can drive for the rest of the car's life for free, and the car could live for a million miles. Really, no shit. Maintenance is a joke. No oil, no grease, no nothing. Little things die, but like most electronics, make it past the first 20K miles and it's good for a very long time.

A 2014 P85+ will eat your Porsche's lunch.  One pedal, Press down hard. Done. You can get racks for it, and never go to another Porsche dealership in your life. It's actually a seven-passenger hatchback (if someone opted for the two kid seats in the back). Drop the back seats and you have a huge cargo space. And a "frunk" that's as big as most car's trunk. Brake pads have infinite life (more than 90 percent of braking is regenerative). Every so often you need to do a hard emergency stop to clean the oxidation off the disks. Tesla once paid a $245K fine for not having an OBDII connector within two feet of the steering wheel. They added one. It fundamentally reads nothing. Connects to the can bus, but there isn't anything in CAFE compliance to read.

Get in one and drive it. That's all it takes. You'll ditch your Cayenne so fast it will make your head spin. Makes me nuts that people don't get this. The future is here, it's just unevenly distributed.

https://www.tesla.com/findus?v=2&search=North%20America&bounds=50.164646070149935%2C-54.18220367399982%2C31.693201564706058%2C-102.34626617399982&filters=supercharger&zoom=6&location=topekasupercharger
« Last Edit: August 26, 2019, 08:57:18 PM by PonoBill »
Ponohouse is for sale: http://www.ponohouse.com
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

SUPJorge

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Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
« Reply #27 on: August 27, 2019, 07:52:36 AM »
Bill, I'm glad we had this chat. Thanks, Jorge
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Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
« Reply #28 on: August 27, 2019, 09:05:12 PM »
I had a similar conversation with a friend a few months ago. He went off, did his own research, and bought a used 2018 100D for 51K. A few weeks later he texted me this: "Fastest, quickest, cheapest, most reliable, safest, environmentally responsible, comfortable, most cargo space, best amenities, best audio, automatically updating, autosteering, smartest, most comfortable, most beautiful car I've ever had. How did I not know this!"

I texted him back: "Motor Trend Car of the Year for the last seven years and they never took out a single ad in Motor Trend. What exactly the fuck does it take??"

I haven't heard back. Maybe I should have just smugly smiled instead of smugly replying.
Ponohouse is for sale: http://www.ponohouse.com
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

PonoBill

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Re: Electric Surf Vehicles in 2020
« Reply #29 on: August 27, 2019, 09:22:26 PM »
All this makes me realize what a dope I am. I'm waiting for the Tesla Truck so I can have the towing capacity I no longer need. I bought my F350 truck because my previous one developed a monster oil leak I didn't want to deal with. Essentially I paid $65K for it if I value the trade-in appropriately.

I've decided to retire from road racing, so I actually don't need to drag my airstream race car hauler any more. So I don't really need the truck--I love the silly thing, but I really don't need it. I could ditch it and buy a used Tesla P100D. It's nuts that I don't. I love driving Diane's car.

I have to think about this.
Ponohouse is for sale: http://www.ponohouse.com
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.