Author Topic: Axis Foils  (Read 283821 times)

Dwight (DW)

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #1110 on: October 27, 2021, 02:50:56 PM »

so does that mean that the shorter fuse will need the same change to the stab as the longer mast?

Yes. But most know this. The mast length affect was the new news.

supmmmm

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #1111 on: October 27, 2021, 06:12:36 PM »
Looking to upgrade my foil - still learning - is the 920 still decent for winging and sup foiling or do I look elsewhere in the Axis lineup? I weight 168 lbs, rising a 98 litre board. Regards

flkiter

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #1112 on: October 27, 2021, 07:20:02 PM »
Looking to upgrade my foil - still learning - is the 920 still decent for winging and sup foiling or do I look elsewhere in the Axis lineup? I weight 168 lbs, rising a 98 litre board. Regards

I use the 920 in my schools, great beginner sup and wing foil. Plus you can find them used for a good deal.

Mario_Wings

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #1113 on: October 27, 2021, 11:58:04 PM »

so does that mean that the shorter fuse will need the same change to the stab as the longer mast?

Yes. But most know this. The mast length affect was the new news.

so one could gather that doing both (going longer mast and shorter fuse from a given setup) would further aggravate the situation . . . meaning  even bigger tail or more aggressive shimming needed.

Would moving the mast more forward would possibly cancel out some of the change but may put the mast in not the best position balance wise for the board or for the available placement of your straps if you ride strapped.


Mike dubs

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #1114 on: October 29, 2021, 07:20:22 AM »
Bit of chat on the 999 thread about these new progressive tails.

I'm riding the BSC 890 and 810 with the 390 for lighter conditions but mainly the 420 for powered.

So any views on what size progressive tail to get and what it'll give me that the 390 and 420 won't?

Mike

Dwight (DW)

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #1115 on: October 29, 2021, 07:25:53 AM »

So any views on what size progressive tail to get and what it'll give me that the 390 and 420 won't?

Mike

I rode the 420 all the time with my HPS foils. When I got the Progressive 400 I was immediately impressed by the reduced drag and improved jibes. I went back to the 420 one more time for comparison. No going back. Sold my 420. Im guessing Axis feels the same way because they released a bazillion sizes of the Progressive series.

« Last Edit: October 29, 2021, 07:28:20 AM by Dwight (DW) »

headmount

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #1116 on: October 29, 2021, 10:51:50 AM »

So any views on what size progressive tail to get and what it'll give me that the 390 and 420 won't?

Mike

I rode the 420 all the time with my HPS foils. When I got the Progressive 400 I was immediately impressed by the reduced drag and improved jibes. I went back to the 420 one more time for comparison. No going back. Sold my 420. Im guessing Axis feels the same way because they released a bazillion sizes of the Progressive series.
So for someone bigger than you, a bigger tail in that Progressive series?

Dwight (DW)

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #1117 on: October 29, 2021, 01:35:16 PM »
So for someone bigger than you, a bigger tail in that Progressive series?

Just finished my first day winging the 375 with the 999. Riding a 4m. 190 lbs.

The 375 is the perfect size for me with the 999. Balance spot on. As loose turning as I can handle. I actually fell twice when the quick turning caught me out. So maximum performance for this 67 yr old.

Id bump up to 400 or 425 as weight goes up, or if you want to error on more stability.

My buddy Ryan tried Jackys 350 winging on his 810 with a 3m. Hes maybe 145 lbs. The 350 is the magic size for him.

flkiter

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #1118 on: October 29, 2021, 05:39:07 PM »
I've found that if you like the 370 then the 350 progressive works perfect. I'm currently using the 999 work crazy short fuselage 350 rear and 75 cm mast metal.
The progressives don't pump as well as the 370 to me but they allow for way more glide so give and take. Plus way more speed with the progressives.

headmount

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #1119 on: October 29, 2021, 11:12:06 PM »
So for someone bigger than you, a bigger tail in that Progressive series?

Just finished my first day winging the 375 with the 999. Riding a 4m. 190 lbs.

The 375 is the perfect size for me with the 999. Balance spot on. As loose turning as I can handle. I actually fell twice when the quick turning caught me out. So maximum performance for this 67 yr old.

Id bump up to 400 or 425 as weight goes up, or if you want to error on more stability.

My buddy Ryan tried Jackys 350 winging on his 810 with a 3m. Hes maybe 145 lbs. The 350 is the magic size for him.
Thanks.  I have four more years than you and 20 more pounds so I'll take your advice on erring up with more stability. 

Mike dubs

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #1120 on: October 30, 2021, 03:28:15 AM »
Thanks for info on progressives, so for my 77kg should I go 400 or 375?

Mike

Dwight (DW)

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #1121 on: October 30, 2021, 03:54:54 AM »
Thanks for info on progressives, so for my 77kg should I go 400 or 375?

Mike


375

Dwight (DW)

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #1122 on: October 30, 2021, 08:26:56 AM »
Keep in mind what Kane said in the podcast.

A shimmed (for more AOA) smaller tail with have more stop speed than a bigger tail not shimmed.
A bigger tail not shimmed with have more low end than a smaller tail shimmed.

So by extension, a bigger tail not shimmed would pump better than a small tail shimmed.

PonoBill

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #1123 on: October 30, 2021, 10:31:13 AM »
A tail wing does at least two things: Act as an elevator, and provide some lift. Acting as an elevator, when you shim the back of the tail it applies torque to the fuselage that tries to push the tail down which would increase the angle of attack of the wing and make the nose rise--just as an elevator does to an airplane. Of course, we generally resist that rise by pushing harder with our front foot, but the force is there and some small change in main wing AOA happens. We resist the force trying to make the nose of the board ride high and we level out somewhere (hopefully). Lean back and up it comes. The angle of the elevator increases drag a little bit, but not much. A little up angle makes the foil more stable--setting the tail to a zero angle relative to the wing means any tiny change to pitch is amplified by the movement of the tail wing relative to the main wing, and it will either crash down, over foil, or hobbyhorse as you try to control it. Too much up angle means you'll be putting a lot of weight on your front foot and if you unweight to do something like swap your feet the nose will shoot up. You'll also have a bit more drag.  Dialing a bit more angle into the tail is good for beginners who are going relatively slowly.

The lift part comes because the tail wing is a foil. How powerful a foil it is varies with the design of course, and it's why most people have several tails. With a lower performance tail the tail wing is foiled oppositely to the main wing, that is, at zero angle the main wing is lifting up and the tail wing is lifting down. Higher performance wings have a more symmetrical foil and the direction of lift is related to the AOA rather than foil shape. For any wing operating in a non-turbulent mode, increasing the angle of attack by lifting the leading edge relative to the trailing edge will increase lift--right up until the flow goes turbulent and the wing stalls.

In a stabilizer designed for lower speed the lift direction torques the fuselage in the same direction as the elevator action. Reducing the angle of the tail wing by shimming the front decreases both the elevator action and the downward lift, so small increments of angle make a large difference. It's very easy to shim to a hobbyhorse level with near-neutral total effect while there might still be two degrees of incidence angle between the wings.

And then we lean the whole thing way over, add in a bunch of yaw to keep going upwind and some lift from the fuselage, and all that nice simple, seemingly stable theory goes to shit.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2021, 10:45:36 AM by PonoBill »
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

Califoilia

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #1124 on: October 31, 2021, 02:47:02 PM »
So by extension, a bigger tail not shimmed would pump better than a small tail shimmed.
Yes, what I found also in testing them (surfing btw). Love the 400P with the 890 and crazy short on the 75cm aluminum mast, so thought I'd try the 375P, and while I like it being a little faster and looser, I didn't like the feel of less tail/lift in the pump part. So threw on a -1 shim, and that was just a fly in the ointment. Didn't really do anything better except for maybe a marginal increase when pumping, but not enough for me to want to leave it on there, and went back to the 400P with the 890.

That said, the 375P with the 910b (rest being the same) is awesome...loosens it ups nicely in turns w/o breaking tail sliding as I'd sometimes get with the 400HA, and is still plenty of tail to allow for it to continue to pump great. Super combo!
Me: 6'1"/185...5'1" Kings Foil Board...5'7" Kings Foil Board...9'6" Bob Pearson "Laird Noserider"...14' Lahui Kai "Manta"...8'0" WaveStorm if/when the proning urges still hit.

 


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