Author Topic: Axis Foils  (Read 189657 times)

Dwight (DW)

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #570 on: November 29, 2020, 08:18:27 AM »
Id like to see Axis put the name on the foil. HPS-980

This is a very special class of wing. The lineup can get confusing, with so many wings that look alike to the average person, but are actually very different.


BayAreaKite

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #571 on: November 29, 2020, 01:17:15 PM »
https://youtu.be/PLbul8IqEZA

Good video with real-world testing of thick vs. thin axis masts. As expected, doesn't make a difference. In fact, he even claims the thicker mast is faster due to higher stiffness = more energy transfer to the wings. This aligns with everyone's feedback re: Project Cedrus as well.

Thatspec

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #572 on: November 29, 2020, 11:57:47 PM »
he even claims the thicker mast is faster due to higher stiffness = more energy transfer to the wings.

All of this guys videos are well done but it's just one user experience using a foil in a way that specifically rewards mast stiffness. Of course there's more drag from a 19mm mast vs a 16mm vs a 14mm. It's just insignificant amongst all the other drag in the system and everything else going on while foiling. There actually was a very slight edge to the 16mm in the video overlay but it's too small to say it was the mast (I demand a recount!!!). I'd probably never notice the difference.

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #573 on: November 30, 2020, 01:18:09 AM »
At slow speeds like with pumping he might notice less difference.  At higher speeds (like with winging) it is super apparent.  It is also super apparent under wing power when you are taking off.  This isn't a small difference.   

Have a look at the Nasa calculator linked below.  Make no changes to the calculator yet (leave it as a symmetrical foil like an Axis aluminum mast).  Click the flight button and change it to water and leave the speed at 5. Now go to shape and increase the foil thickness and watch the drag rise.   Now reset and increase the speed from 5 to say 17 mph and watch the drag. 

https://www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/airplane/foil3.html

Thatspec

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #574 on: November 30, 2020, 03:35:52 AM »
So do any of you industry guys have any idea when the 1050 will be available?

Diese neuen Wings sind speziell fr die Black Line Fuselage:
High Performance Speed Wings
Front Wing 1050 - HPS - Carbon 1050mm x 170mm / High Aspect (Dwight says 1460 cm2)
Front Wing 980 - HPS - Carbon 980mm x 160mm / High Aspect
Front Wing 930 - HPS - Carbon 930mm x 155mm / High Aspect
Front Wing 880 - HPS - Carbon 880mm x 150mm / High Aspect
Front Wing 700 - HPS - Carbon 700mm x 160mm / High Aspect

Dwight (DW)

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #575 on: November 30, 2020, 06:16:52 AM »
2 months on the 1050 if memory is correct. Long time on the others.

Dwight (DW)

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #576 on: November 30, 2020, 06:20:20 AM »
At slow speeds like with pumping he might notice less difference.  At higher speeds (like with winging) it is super apparent.  It is also super apparent under wing power when you are taking off.  This isn't a small difference.   

Have a look at the Nasa calculator linked below.  Make no changes to the calculator yet (leave it as a symmetrical foil like an Axis aluminum mast).  Click the flight button and change it to water and leave the speed at 5. Now go to shape and increase the foil thickness and watch the drag rise.   Now reset and increase the speed from 5 to say 17 mph and watch the drag. 

https://www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/airplane/foil3.html

Good info. This is why Im going all carbon. My winging to SUP ratio is 90/10, so speed gains matter most to me.

Dwight (DW)

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #577 on: December 01, 2020, 12:52:52 PM »
Finding some unexpected benefits to the HPS wings.

The ultra low drag gives more paddling speed when SUPing.

It also lets the wing board accelerate faster when sheeting in, on the surface.

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #578 on: December 02, 2020, 04:14:00 AM »
It also lets the wing board accelerate faster when sheeting in, on the surface.

I am with you.  This is super noticeable.  960 mast and 980 wing is my lowest resistance setup on water so far.   I am finding it really quick to break free.  I have read some early reviews saying that it was difficult to get airborne (similar to the 900).  I am not finding that at all.  It is more in line with the 860 in that regard (with a wing).  For winging, I am thinking that this will be a full sized wing for guys at 160 to 180 and a normal wing for 190 to 210.  Either way it seems like it has a really broad range.


Dwight (DW)

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #579 on: December 02, 2020, 07:33:00 AM »
I agree Admin....nothing like the 900. Much better low end.

Its all technique, and its not hard to learn the technique for this foil. Much easier to master than the 900 and 1000.

Its possible a prone foiler might have different opinions. Weve got a wing to sheet in and make easy speed.



PonoBill

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #580 on: December 02, 2020, 04:08:50 PM »
A 3mm difference in thickness in a symmetrical foil mast = noticeable difference in drag?? I'm not buying that without someone sticking the thing in a test tank. 3mm is a little over 0.1 inches. Here we have this goofy apparatus with all the streamlining of a rooftop TV antenna being dragged through the water. Vibrating, scratched up, slightly bent (has to be, even if it's brand new), unsophisticated fit and finish regardless of the manufacturer. The flow isn't likely to be separating. Claiming to feel the difference is like curing cancer with a round of thoughts and prayers. It's in your head.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2020, 04:14:06 PM by PonoBill »
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

Admin

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #581 on: December 02, 2020, 05:19:22 PM »
First off, why would you possibly have a scratch on your mast?  :)

3mm is a 16% of 19 mm mast thickness and it is 3 mm that carries over the meter length of the mast (OK, the carbon masts do taper but..).  The NASA link above gives the #'s.  You can set it for water and check it at any winging speed that you want to check.  It will give you the resulting drag.  Increase or reduce the thickness by our 16% and check the results.  it is very noticeable. 

Smooch


Dwight (DW)

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #582 on: December 02, 2020, 05:23:52 PM »
What about masts that pee like a fire hose, sucking water half way up the shaft, while other masts are silent with zero peeing.

Drag?

Thatspec

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #583 on: December 03, 2020, 01:15:57 AM »
What about masts that pee like a fire hose, sucking water half way up the shaft, while other masts are silent with zero peeing.

Drag?

It "appears" to be worse when the mast angle to the water is more acute on the TE but it's there pretty much all the time on the Axis alu masts. This guy maxes out at about 12mph though. Started looking around and I see it on most brands, can't be a good thing. Here's a good view of it starting at about 1:22
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLbul8IqEZA

I like Bill's "all the streamlining of a rooftop TV antenna being dragged through the water" analogy though  ;D


Admin

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #584 on: December 03, 2020, 03:55:03 AM »
This is a TV antenna?  Nah, this is as streamlined as it gets.  The connections are beautiful. 

Also, if 3mm is no big deal then just add 3mm.  We will all have chubby 22 mm masts and we can have a stiffy party.  Wait, that doesn't sound good on any level.

Interestingly (not for masts but just generally), if you play with the NASA calculator linked above you can see that increasing thickness by the 16% we have been talking about causes a significantly greater drag increase than increasing the angle of the same foil by 1 degree.  These new Black fuses allow for both thinner foils and lower angles so we are noticing that goodness as well. 

« Last Edit: December 03, 2020, 04:56:09 AM by Admin »

 


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