Author Topic: Axis Foils  (Read 129246 times)

PonoBill

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #300 on: July 15, 2020, 08:51:31 AM »
Axis is shipping me everything but the mast and 900 wing. I think you bought them out of everything. Two weeks on the 900 wing, three MONTHS on the carbon mast. You bastard.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

Phils

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #301 on: July 15, 2020, 12:52:09 PM »
Reading all this is giving me high aspect wing envy.  Armstrong reportedly has some in development.  Canít wait.

Dwight (DW)

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #302 on: July 15, 2020, 12:59:28 PM »
Today I learned another tail wing lesson.

My 2100 sq cm Moses has been slippery and fast for me, yet I know two other people who own them, and describe it is a beast.

Turns out it is the TAIL wing causing these radically different opinions.

Just as the Axis 390 tail changed your life. The big Moses with the 483 tail versus the 450 tail, is a night and day different package.

I took side by side photos of them. They look identical in area, but are radically different in how they affect the whole package. SHOCKING. The 483 gives the package the speed of the Axis 900, while the 450 makes it act the Axis 102. Twilight zone shit happening right there. 4-5 mph faster every reach with the 483 tail.


PonoBill

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #303 on: July 15, 2020, 05:44:48 PM »
You might want to measure the incidence angle of the two stabilizers. Most manufacturers are cranking in some angle. Cranking it back out can dramatically change how wing sets perform. A plus incidence angle (rear edge of the tail lifted) applies force to increase the angle of attack of the main wing which increases lift of wings, especially those with a higher foil coefficient. It also increases drag. I can't say this is bad, it makes the wing easier to lift and firms up pitch control. But it's not the route to higher speed, and it takes more front leg pressure to keep the wing trimmed. Measuring the Axis 440 tail yields a little over 5.2 degrees positive incidence angle. The 101 is fairly slow with this tail. Shimming it to reduce the incidence to 3 degrees makes the 101 come alive. Apparently the 390 has a zero incidence--at least that's what Admin told me. I haven't measured it. As soon as I finish making my new incidence meter I'll be playing with all my Axis wing/tail combinations. I ordered a model airplane incidence angle gauge, but it's not here yet and it looks a little rickety. I have a good gyroscopic angle gauge that I'm mounting to a sliding clamp that should give good repeatable results. I just need to stop foiling and finish making it.

I know you know all this DW, but others probably don't.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

cnski

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #304 on: July 15, 2020, 06:26:30 PM »
So I have an 1150 on the way and am wondering which stabilizer I shought get? I weigh about 245 lbs. and will be winging with this setup with a 76 mast and standard fuse. This will be my first Axis setup. I'm thinking the 460? Anyone have a 460 they would like to sell? I guess Axis is out of stabs for the next couple weeks :-/

PonoBill

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #305 on: July 15, 2020, 09:35:23 PM »
The 460 looks like a pretty weird design. I think it's for flat out speed and probably doesn't help much with turning. I'd probably go with either a 440 or a 370 and probably shim them to 3 degrees or less.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

Admin

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #306 on: July 16, 2020, 12:52:09 AM »
You might want to measure the incidence angle of the two stabilizers. Most manufacturers are cranking in some angle. Cranking it back out can dramatically change how wing sets perform. A plus incidence angle (rear edge of the tail lifted) applies force to increase the angle of attack of the main wing which increases lift of wings, especially those with a higher foil coefficient. It also increases drag. I can't say this is bad, it makes the wing easier to lift and firms up pitch control. But it's not the route to higher speed, and it takes more front leg pressure to keep the wing trimmed. Measuring the Axis 440 tail yields a little over 5.2 degrees positive incidence angle. The 101 is fairly slow with this tail. Shimming it to reduce the incidence to 3 degrees makes the 101 come alive. Apparently the 390 has a zero incidence--at least that's what Admin told me. I haven't measured it. As soon as I finish making my new incidence meter I'll be playing with all my Axis wing/tail combinations. I ordered a model airplane incidence angle gauge, but it's not here yet and it looks a little rickety. I have a good gyroscopic angle gauge that I'm mounting to a sliding clamp that should give good repeatable results. I just need to stop foiling and finish making it.

I know you know all this DW, but others probably don't.

It was actually DW that had mentioned to me that the 390 runs at zero angle of attack.  I believe that he was referring to the stabilizer angle only not as a relationship to any specific front wing.  Mark was using the Delta setup (below) on the beach which measures stabilizer angle in relation to a specific front wing but that number will change based on the front wing. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTCyag5N_vE

headmount

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #307 on: July 16, 2020, 01:15:34 AM »
Here's a simple shim idea I just got from my pal.  My first day on a 1010 had my foot forward of the strap to keep the foil from stalling.  I'll find out how it works tomorrow.

obxDave

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #308 on: July 16, 2020, 02:41:45 AM »
Today I learned another tail wing lesson.

My 2100 sq cm Moses has been slippery and fast for me, yet I know two other people who own them, and describe it is a beast.

Turns out it is the TAIL wing causing these radically different opinions.

Just as the Axis 390 tail changed your life. The big Moses with the 483 tail versus the 450 tail, is a night and day different package.

I took side by side photos of them. They look identical in area, but are radically different in how they affect the whole package. SHOCKING. The 483 gives the package the speed of the Axis 900, while the 450 makes it act the Axis 102. Twilight zone shit happening right there. 4-5 mph faster every reach with the 483 tail.

I sold my 483 and bought the 450. Now Iím rebuying a 483.  Will the madness never end!?!? Wait, isnít this an Axis thread? :o

Dwight (DW)

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #309 on: July 16, 2020, 04:02:42 PM »
I sold my 483 and bought the 450. Now Iím rebuying a 483.  Will the madness never end!?!? Wait, isnít this an Axis thread? :o

I checked the AOA of the two tail wings. The 483 is 1.5 degrees lower.

Adding a single 6mm washer in the rear of the 450 get the AOA the same on both tails.

BTW, thickness of the two wings is the same.

Hope to try the 450 shimmed tomorrow.


Admin

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #310 on: July 17, 2020, 02:58:48 AM »
There is a kid here riding a 679 with a 483.  He is killing it.

Has anyone 3D printed the shims that Axis has pdf's for?  I would like to try to flatten some of our down diver tails to see how those roll.  It would also be great to know the angle of the tails only as a base line.  I know that I am loving the 390 so if I know the angle of that (is it actually zero ?) and the others are for instance 3 I will know how much to adjust.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2020, 04:30:52 AM by Admin »

Dwight (DW)

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #311 on: July 17, 2020, 04:51:59 AM »
Hum...canít you just tell Bill to do it  ;D

My calipers wouldnít reach over my front wing, so I donít know my tail angle compared to the front. But who cares when I know the 483 works great. So I measured the angle of the 483 to the fuselage, then measured the 450 the same way. 1.5 degrees lower. Good enough  ;D

PonoBill

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #312 on: July 17, 2020, 12:04:51 PM »
So I watched the video and modified an old set of calipers to do the same thing. Fine for high aspect, several inches short for low aspect. I already had the same magnetic digital angle indicator though mine isn't called Wixey and I lost the battery compartment cover some time ago, but it's back in action. I'll make version 3 of my gauge as soon as I have some time, the idea of using a narrow V for the attachment is a great one. I used a piece of 1/2" angle stainless and it was wobbly. The calipers need holding, my gauge design uses a sliding spring to hold tension.

Okay, I have to go make this, I just realized what I need to do. More later.

Oh, and yeah, I'll crank out a bunch of front shims. I've been using washers but it's not pretty. I have the file, but I need to modify it and get my creaky old 3D printers working.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2020, 12:06:35 PM by PonoBill »
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

Dwight (DW)

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #313 on: July 17, 2020, 01:41:08 PM »
I rode the 450 tail today shimmed. Nothing special. Switched to the 483 and took off like a rocket. 4 mph faster on the first run. Topped out 6 mph faster on the day.

Best leave wing design to the professionals. The 390 is the magic Axis tail, and the 483 is the magic Moses. Just take my money and let them figure this shit out  ;D

bigmtn

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #314 on: July 17, 2020, 02:28:50 PM »
Has anyone 3D printed the shims that Axis has pdf's for?  I would like to try to flatten some of our down diver tails to see how those roll.  It would also be great to know the angle of the tails only as a base line.  I know that I am loving the 390 so if I know the angle of that (is it actually zero ?) and the others are for instance 3 I will know how much to adjust.

Agreed! Would love to know the angles of the 370 and 400 stabs compared to the 390.

Got the 390 yesterday, and noticed the foil felt smoother and it pumped better compared to the 370 I've been using. (900 front)

 


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