Author Topic: Axis Foils  (Read 230021 times)

Hdip

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #450 on: October 14, 2020, 11:42:21 AM »
Pretty much all the carbon masts offered by these companies are crap.

Slight tangent here, but have you tried the https://projectcedrus.com/ masts cnski?

PonoBill

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #451 on: October 14, 2020, 02:38:53 PM »
Pretty much all the carbon masts offered by these companies are crap.

Slight tangent here, but have you tried the https://projectcedrus.com/ masts cnski?

Project Cedrus is the company I was trying to think of in a previous discussion about masts. His design is almost identical to what I was considering building molds for. My idea was different in detail--I planned to do very long molds and cut the masts to the length required. I planned to use a two-piece aluminum or steel mold perhaps 400CM (13 feet) long. The mold can be quite simple. The U-shaped parts would be cut to length and glued face to face, potentially with an internal X brace, but probably not. Leading and trailing edges would be cast urethane non-structural pieces that snap on to the tang. I went so far as to price the metal molds and make a small model. Then I realized I'd actually have to do work to make this happen and came to my senses. Finding Project Cedrus already existed and had a patent on the design was a pleasant shock.
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Phils

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #452 on: October 15, 2020, 04:33:18 PM »
Pretty much all the carbon masts offered by these companies are crap.

Slight tangent here, but have you tried the https://projectcedrus.com/ masts cnski?
These masts are noticeably draggy

Hdip

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #453 on: October 15, 2020, 05:03:01 PM »

These masts are noticeably draggy

I saw that on his page. He's open about it which is nice. They're the same width as the 19mm Axis aluminum mast which makes me wonder if I'd even notice the difference. (I'm on the 16mm AXIS)

That flat water pumping video that showed the 19mm pumps faster over flat water than the 16mm mast kind of broke my brain and I don't know how to process it.

Phils

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #454 on: October 16, 2020, 12:52:46 AM »

These masts are noticeably draggy

I saw that on his page. He's open about it which is nice. They're the same width as the 19mm Axis aluminum mast which makes me wonder if I'd even notice the difference. (I'm on the 16mm AXIS)

That flat water pumping video that showed the 19mm pumps faster over flat water than the 16mm mast kind of broke my brain and I don't know how to process it.
I am not familiar with the referenced video or how reproducible their result are but my guess is the difference is related to stiffness.  I don't know if they compared glide.  You are probably looking at getting increased stiffness for more drag.  Can't have everything, I guess. 

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #455 on: October 16, 2020, 03:02:36 AM »
The overall drag difference is super noticeable between the Axis carbon masts and the 19 aluminum masts with a wing.  You take off earlier and in less wind and you get better high end as well.  The take off improvement may be partly due to the much cleaner base at the track.  It sounds like some people are more sensitive to flex than we are but I don't pick up any difference there.

Thatspec

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #456 on: October 16, 2020, 03:47:35 AM »

BayAreaKite

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #457 on: October 16, 2020, 06:06:58 AM »
Pretty much all the carbon masts offered by these companies are crap.

Slight tangent here, but have you tried the https://projectcedrus.com/ masts cnski?
These masts are noticeably draggy

Not to be rude but is that statement coming from personal experience? Sorry I have to chime in on threads like these because my marketing budget is $0. I'd like to make a few comments regarding stiffness.

First, 90% of my sales this summer have been to wingfoilers who all greatly appreciate the stiffness. They are able to go with longer masts, ride wider boards, and use bigger wings thanks to the stiffness of Project Cedrus.

Secondly, not one of those customers has complained of "noticeably more drag." You can ask any of my Axis customers, which is not surprising because as you point out the mast is a very similar profile. But even my Lift customers (quite a few of them) say they notice no decrease in speeds either despite the mast being thicker than the Lift mast. Again, it is quite a bit stiffer (and actually lighter) so maybe their brains are fixating on the positives vs. the potential negatives I don't know. But the reality is, the mast is ONE component of total foil drag. Most comes from the wings, a large component comes from the mast/fuselage interface, a large component comes from the water piercing section of the mast, and the rest from the laminar (hopefully) flow around the main portion of the mast. The bigger and slower the wings get, the less likely you are to notice drag from the mast. Some of my test riders a couple years (!!) ago riding small Moses wings on kites noticed more drag vs. the Moses mast. Maybe it's time to update the website to more relevant feedback. I am an [honest] engineer, not a sales/marketing guy.

Thirdly, beam stiffness varies with the cubic of thickness. So a 19mm thick mast can be 50% stiffer than a 16mm mast. This is why Axis has two different thicknesses for their carbon masts, because the thinner carbon is not nearly as stiff as the thicker aluminum. Drag increases linearly with thickness. The point is, with a small tradeoff in drag you can have massive stiffness improvements. This is how Project Cedrus is able to achieve strength, stiffness, and low weight... all for a few mm of thickness. I made this decision 3 years ago, and a lot of FEA, CFD, and thought/analysis went into it. Quite a bit ahead of the industry, and am glad I did. Because wing foilers now are demanding stiff masts for their wider boards, bigger wings, ability to pump, and bigger loads.

Thank you for your discussion and interest, Kyle
« Last Edit: October 16, 2020, 06:14:16 AM by BayAreaKite »

Califoilia

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #458 on: October 16, 2020, 08:31:57 AM »
The overall drag difference is super noticeable between the Axis carbon masts and the 19 aluminum masts with a wing.  You take off earlier and in less wind and you get better high end as well.  The take off improvement may be partly due to the much cleaner base at the track.  It sounds like some people are more sensitive to flex than we are but I don't pick up any difference there.
This is interesting, because I didn't notice any drag difference between the two, but honestly didn't pay that much attention to it or look for it of the immediate flex difference I felt, and was more tuned in and focus wrt that than I was comparing much else in the few sessions I rode it.

But I also have to wonder if the differences in power sources that we're both using doesn't have something to do with it also. You're getting added/aided lift off the water from the wing being pulled upward not just forward, while all of my lift is generated by how fast I can get the foil up to speed with only the forward thrust of the paddle (and the varying energy of the waves), with no added lifting forces outside of that. Dunno.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2020, 09:25:43 AM by SanoSlatchSup »
Me: 6'1"/185...5'1" Kings Foil Board...5'7" Kings Foil Board...9'6" Bob Pearson "Laird Noserider"...14' Lahui Kai "Manta"...8'0" WaveStorm if/when the proning urges still hit.

Califoilia

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #459 on: October 16, 2020, 08:59:37 AM »
Thank you for your discussion and interest, Kyle
Hey Kyle, thanks for joining in the conversation because I've been really trying to justify the investment of hundreds of $$$ for a few ounces of weight. So just how much lighter exactly is your 75cm mast compared to the same length Axis 19mm aluminum mast, and is there some "stiffness" comparison number of the two (is your mast as stiff, not as stiff, or stiffer than the Axis is what I'm asking)?

I ask this because when I got my Axis setup, I weighed the baseplate, mast, and "short" fuse, along side the same all-in-one same carbon components of my Go Foil setup since I couldn't weigh the GF mast separately...and found there to be only a 10 oz difference between the two.

Now at least for me, 10 oz in the big scheme of things is nothing, compared to the huge stiffness advantage I felt in the aluminum vs the carbon...when my board/leash/strap weighs 17lbs, and I weigh in at between 185 and 190 on any given day. Same thing when I had the Axis CF mast (that I never did get around to weighing to see the difference between the two dang it), that whatever I might have been saving in weight, I was definitely losing in stiffness that I could feel and didn't like right away.

So I'm looking to go a little longer with an 82cm mast, and trying to see if the "price per oz" justifies spending $1100 for your CF mast, compared to the $117 it would cost me for the Axis aluminum...and if the stiffness comparison is the same, slightly better, or slightly worse.

Thanks,
Dave 
Me: 6'1"/185...5'1" Kings Foil Board...5'7" Kings Foil Board...9'6" Bob Pearson "Laird Noserider"...14' Lahui Kai "Manta"...8'0" WaveStorm if/when the proning urges still hit.

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #460 on: October 16, 2020, 09:10:26 AM »
I also have to wonder if the differences in power sources that were both using doesn't have something to do with it also.

My guess is that it does. 

AGK

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #461 on: October 16, 2020, 09:46:30 AM »
I have used both 76 and 60 cm 19mm aluminum Axis masts with both 1020 and 1150 wings, as well as a first-gen Cedrus ~67 cm mast with the same wings.  I notice no difference in speed or acceleration (although neither of these is a really fast wing).  The Cedrus seems just as stiff as the alum masts (and much stiffer than a new Cloud 9 76 cm carbon mast I have) and is a LOT lighter.  I pretty much always use the Cedrus, both because of weight and also it is quicker to attach and remove the fuse.  I'm a happy customer.  YMMV.

clay

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #462 on: October 16, 2020, 10:33:07 AM »
Pretty much all the carbon masts offered by these companies are crap. The marketing BS from Armstrong is just an excuse to offer a chinese made mast with some kind of cheap core and low grade carbon. Sure you can ride them just fine and there is some performance gain when getting away from a 19mm aluminum mast. If these carbon masts were truly great these companies would be touting their construction, which they are not.

"A no compromise foil featuring the unique M40J high modulus carbon prepreg mast and wings to guarantee unreached performance"- A statement like this is what you want to hear. And you don't hear this from Axis or Armstrong.

You're better off with an Axis Aluminum mast than their carbon one. I tried an Axis carbon mast and wasn't impressed. My Delta freeride kitefoil has a custom 13mm UHM mast that is truly stiff and light years ahead in performance from the 15mm Aluminum counterpart.

My Mike's Lab kiteracing 110cm foil is the the stiffest most stable foil I have rode. I think it's under 13mm. It has a carbon mast you can be proud of. And you pay top dollar for this performance no doubt.

I'm winging on an Axis 19mm mast for now and hope to find something better in the future but nothing currently exists.

Thank you!  This is very helpful and resonates.
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BayAreaKite

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #463 on: October 16, 2020, 03:49:25 PM »
Thanks for the questions, a couple things:

For sure the loads on the mast will be different if you are under a kite, powered by a wing, or on a SUP. I actually think the highest loads are under SUP, because they are the widest boards, and therefore the biggest moment. The kite results in the lowest forces, because it actually adds lift to the rider (therefore reducing his weight) and also boards are generally smaller. So good points brought up.

Thank you AGK for the feedback on Cedrus.

Dave, one thing that is clearly misunderstood is that a carbon mast should be lighter and stiffer than an aluminum mast. If it's not lighter and stiffer, than it's a crappy design. I didn't say it, cnski did. But he's right. Carbon is 2-3x stiffer than aluminum (120GPa vs. 68GPa) and 40% of the density (1.8g/cc vs. 2.6). There's a reason high performance cars, airplanes, and bikes are all carbon. For some reason the foil industry hasn't really figured out how to make a light, stiff, strong carbon foil. I believe it has partly to do with the fact that they make everything in Asia and spend their money on marketing and not engineering. I am not faulting them for this, it's just the reality of the sporting goods industry. I would not buy any of the carbon masts on the market because as you point out, there is no benefit over the aluminum! Unless you are racing, in which case the thinner masts reduce drag. But this is a small population, which is why I developed Project Cedrus.

I can't compete with aluminum on price. I bet you that $117 Axis mast cost $20 to extrude out of aluminum material and another few $$ to anodize. Project Cedrus is handmade in WA and OR by very skilled technicians who earn an honest wage and work for companies that have high environmental standards. The only way I can even sell it for the price I do is to reduce the distribution chain (no importers, distributors, or retail shops taking a cut). Sadly this impacts volume, but again I can't afford the markups or the mast would cost $4k. If volume were higher, I could certainly bring the cost down. Another story. So when you buy Cedrus you're not just buying a lighter weight mast. You're buying a stiffer mast, a mast that should last a lifetime (I think AGK purchased his in 2018 and has ridden it with Stringy, Cloud IX, and Axis). So it's an investment that can pay off quickly if you like to change your wings around. Is it worth it? I don't know, that's a personal question. I have customers who buy 3 (each a different length no questions asked) and I have guys who tell me it's overpriced and laugh at me. If you spend a lot of time on the water, hate being forced into a new wing attachment ecosystem every season, want something unique, appreciate American made products, then I think it's a steal. If you are happy with your aluminum mast, then stick with it and enjoy the ride! Spend money on things that make you happy:)

Thanks again, Kyle

Califoilia

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Re: Axis Foils
« Reply #464 on: October 16, 2020, 06:10:35 PM »
So when you buy Cedrus you're not just buying a lighter weight mast. You're buying a stiffer mast, a mast that should last a lifetime (I think AGK purchased his in 2018 and has ridden it with Stringy, Cloud IX, and Axis). So it's an investment that can pay off quickly if you like to change your wings around. Is it worth it? I don't know, that's a personal question. I have customers who buy 3 (each a different length no questions asked) and I have guys who tell me it's overpriced and laugh at me. If you spend a lot of time on the water, hate being forced into a new wing attachment ecosystem every season, want something unique, appreciate American made products, then I think it's a steal. If you are happy with your aluminum mast, then stick with it and enjoy the ride! Spend money on things that make you happy:)

Thanks again, Kyle
Great answer Kyle, and thank you for the in depth explanation...it all makes perfect sense, and is much appreciated. I can't say for sure that I'll be a buyer - I certainly wasn't previously - but now I'm most definitely interested if it's "stiffer than an aluminum mast", and that it "should be lighter" is just an added benefit for me.

Thanks again,
Dave
Me: 6'1"/185...5'1" Kings Foil Board...5'7" Kings Foil Board...9'6" Bob Pearson "Laird Noserider"...14' Lahui Kai "Manta"...8'0" WaveStorm if/when the proning urges still hit.

 


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