Author Topic: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins  (Read 88306 times)

gzasinets

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Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
« Reply #30 on: July 08, 2019, 10:51:54 AM »
Just ordered a set. Curious to try on my SuperTech where I live it is always mushy and weak. Also I will be in Maui in a month so I will try them in hawaiian waves.
SIC Bullet 17.4 V1
SIC F16 V1
SIC Bullet 14V2
2018 Infinity Downtown 14x25 flat deck

GoFoil Iwa, M200, M280
JL Flying V 6.5
Duotone Foil Wing 5m

JL SuperTech 8.8
JL Kwad 9.1
2016 Imagine Icon 9.6 W

Cronin LB 9.4
Bunch of QB & Kenalu Paddles

nalu-sup

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Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
« Reply #31 on: July 08, 2019, 12:27:39 PM »
Any thoughts on how different bottom shapes might affect toe or no-toe?
For example: a board with a single concave from nose to tail is going to tend to channel the water straight back along the length of the board which would seem to fit with no-toe fins, whereas a board without channels and with a lot of V in the tail is going to tend to release the water more out to the sides back in the fin area which would seem to make sense to have some toe in the fins.
Does that make sense, and does that correlate with any testing results?
8'7" Sunova Flow  121 L
8'8" Blue Planet 'All Good' 120 L
8'10" Sunova Speeed 130 L
9'0" Tabou SupaSurf  145 L
16' S.I.C. F16 downwinder 323 L

nalu-sup

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Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
« Reply #32 on: July 08, 2019, 12:39:54 PM »
They recently got PayPal working on the site, so I just ordered a set. Excited to try them out on some different boards with different bottom shapes. It might be helpful if the site gave more information on the size of the fins. I notice that it says size Large, so I am guessing that they are around 5", but sizing varies a lot from model to model.
8'7" Sunova Flow  121 L
8'8" Blue Planet 'All Good' 120 L
8'10" Sunova Speeed 130 L
9'0" Tabou SupaSurf  145 L
16' S.I.C. F16 downwinder 323 L

jarvissup

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Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
« Reply #33 on: July 08, 2019, 02:23:47 PM »
Nalu,
         The fins are: Base 4.5"
                            Depth 4.75"

    Thanks for order. As for the bottom contours, Vee, Mono Concave, flat, etc, straight fins seem to work well. I'm sure there is some variance of efficiency that would be detectable with testing in a flow tank, but I haven't come up with an opinion. They make every board I've put them in faster. Most of the boards I ride have Vee, and they work well in them.
Ian

supsurf-tw

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Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
« Reply #34 on: July 10, 2019, 06:57:41 AM »
Any thoughts on how different bottom shapes might affect toe or no-toe?
For example: a board with a single concave from nose to tail is going to tend to channel the water straight back along the length of the board which would seem to fit with no-toe fins, whereas a board without channels and with a lot of V in the tail is going to tend to release the water more out to the sides back in the fin area which would seem to make sense to have some toe in the fins.
Does that make sense, and does that correlate with any testing results?
It ends up being more about outline and length. Again, the overall design elements of the board will determine how the toe in will affect things.
Boards:

 
8-10 x 31 Egg
8-11 X 32 Double wing Fangtail Tom Whitaker
8-6 X 30 1\2  Inbetweener Tom Whitaker
8-4 x 30 Hyper quad Tom Whitaker (wife's now)
8-4 X 31 1\4.  Round (wide) Diamond Tail Quad Tom Whitaker
 9-4 X 30 1\2. Swallow Stinger Quad Tom Whitaker (ex wifes now)
10-0 Brusurf for teach

ninja tuna

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Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
« Reply #35 on: July 10, 2019, 07:52:29 AM »
Hey Jarvis,

Got the fins over the weekend and they look great. Just need some waves and time to try them out.  Thanks

jarvissup

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Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
« Reply #36 on: July 10, 2019, 09:05:47 AM »

Ninja, I hope you enjoy them.
Surf T.W., Well, the good news is that "straight fins" are, no doubt, faster than" toe in" fins on all the boards I've experimented upon.
The other good news is that one of the PHD's I've conferred with is, actually, a NASA engineer and flow expert who is involved with fin development as a hobby. He confirmed that "no toe" fins would, "of course" be faster especially in a sup, and then went on about the variables that included: Speed, foil shape, foil type, width of board, volume of board, bottom design of board etc.
         Mike is a polite, and courteous man, but even so, I could tell he was a man only interested in absolute scientific perfection. In one conversation at a dinner, he and Keith, both engineers, were having a chat about current production fins. They both talked of the inefficiency of currently available fins, and agreed that there seemed to be very little science applied in their design. Mike has developed some very efficient fins, and has tested all manner of shapes, designs and angles with the equipment at his disposal. He asked some questions about the manufacturing process, and what I had found in my little experience, so all we can hope is that he and Keith decide to go ahead and let the rest of us try some of their designs.
         Mike openly spoke about what the most efficient fin design looks like, Keith talked about some of his designs that are similar but with practical modifications. It is exciting stuff, and I hope to be testing some of them in boards soon. For now, the AM template, flat foil is the industry standard, with "no toe" that standard becomes faster on sup's and some surfboards. If guys like this throw in we'll have some very efficient and interesting options in the future.

J-Bird

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Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
« Reply #37 on: July 10, 2019, 01:09:29 PM »
Jarvis,

The fins you are selling, and the ones you've tested... are they foiled just on one side and flat on the other?

Was wondering what your thoughts on 2-side foiled fins are.  I recently put one on my quad fin surf board and I could feel the difference in better hold and speed coming off the lip on that one side.

Beasho

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Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
« Reply #38 on: July 10, 2019, 03:00:22 PM »
You'll go crazy trying to rationalize the Toe and Cant and foils on fins. 

I know because I tried to figure it out and went crazy.  The majority of surfboard designers have NO idea what they are talking about.  But empirically the Toe and Cant works. 

There is a huge drag penalty from Toe and Foiled fins.  I once put in all 4 quads with the FLAT sides facing the same (Right) side of the my SUP gun.  The faces were 8 to 10 feet.  There was so much lift, since the flats were facing the same side, that the board crabbed when going straight at high speed and I could not turn it on a rail.  The torque rolling the board was too great. 

In a normal configuration when the fins are opposing each-other all these forces are 'balanced' but fighting each-other adding 1) Drag and 2) Stability

William Reidel (STRETCH) had the best summary: 

"Having opposing Toe'd fins with Foils ensures that throughout the majority of angles of attack at slow, and fast, speeds at least ONE fin will hold and NOT spin-out."  This video shows the hold vs. spray coming from opposing fins.




supsurf-tw

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Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
« Reply #39 on: July 10, 2019, 05:07:44 PM »
Surfboard design is all about controlling drag and using that drag to accomplish a certain level of performance. No drag and you'd have a board that is unrideable. It all has to balance out somewhere and produce a desired effect
Boards:

 
8-10 x 31 Egg
8-11 X 32 Double wing Fangtail Tom Whitaker
8-6 X 30 1\2  Inbetweener Tom Whitaker
8-4 x 30 Hyper quad Tom Whitaker (wife's now)
8-4 X 31 1\4.  Round (wide) Diamond Tail Quad Tom Whitaker
 9-4 X 30 1\2. Swallow Stinger Quad Tom Whitaker (ex wifes now)
10-0 Brusurf for teach

jarvissup

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Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
« Reply #40 on: July 10, 2019, 06:06:11 PM »
 Ha Ha, Boys, if you read the entire thread, I think you'll see that the ideas/ theories are starting to go in circles. We're all, kind of, saying the same thing now, but in different parts of the thread.

 Yes, drag is necessary.....in powerful waves, but you don't want that drag in less than perfect waves. (see Stun Gun exp)

Yes, shapers (mostly) put fins in at the same "toe in" angle, they don't have flow tanks to test every shape and bottom contours.

And yes, you'll go cray trying to quantify every aspect of what's going on as water flows under a board and around fins. And yes, the engineers I am friends with are crazy already, but the calm, cool kind of crazy that comes with absolute competence. There are too many variables that can change, but I'll bet they're getting closer to that moving target than we've all been before.

 I have gone to fast and been out of control with "no toe" fins, that's why I never liked JP boards in big waves....but only in those waves did I not appreciate their speed and performance, in all other waves, those boards performed beautifully. Two great examples of boards that are perfectly controlled in big waves; JL "Stun Gun", Flight "Step Up". Take either of those and put straight fins in them on a big wave and you'll create an out of control, bucking mess.
     "No toe" fins aren't the answer to every wave, but they have improved the speed and performance of every board I've used them in on less than perfect waves.

nalu-sup

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Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
« Reply #41 on: July 10, 2019, 10:08:16 PM »
jarvissupl having ordered a set of your fins, I was wondering if you could more closely define one of your common statements. You have stated that you did not like non-toe fins on big waves, but loved them on smaller waves. Obviously the type of wave would also have a big affect, but could you share a range of what you mean by "big" or "smaller" waves.
To some people, big is head high; to others, big means Mavericks. What is your own reference when you use these terms?
When I start using your new fins, it would be useful to have your thoughts on what size would warrant a change.
8'7" Sunova Flow  121 L
8'8" Blue Planet 'All Good' 120 L
8'10" Sunova Speeed 130 L
9'0" Tabou SupaSurf  145 L
16' S.I.C. F16 downwinder 323 L

toolate

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Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
« Reply #42 on: July 10, 2019, 11:07:49 PM »
Great thread. I have FCS fins but itís great to learn about the physics of it all. I thought about buying a super tech but decided against it because of its slow wave performance.

And yes.  the ST is much like the STun Gun.  It needs a real wave (waist at least) for it to have fund as most of the speed generated is during the turns (Especially I have found the first bottom turn) not pointing it down the line.

My experience differentl.  My 7'10 St performs way better and faster than my SG down the line. Much faster in waves less than overhead. i love the control of the SG in big waves.

jarvissup

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Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
« Reply #43 on: July 11, 2019, 03:55:13 AM »
Nalu,
Good question, and you're right, we all have our own definition of wave size. However, if you don't mind, I'll make a long story longer, and weave my, humble, east coast definition of wave size into a bigger conversation.
     I had been experimenting with "no toe" fins on a couple of boards, but had not set up all of my boards. I was at Frisco Pier on the Outer Banks surfing waves a little over my 6' height, and they were powerful and ripping down the line so fast that you had to drop in, turn on the drop, and fire down the line, or end up eaten and beaten. The wind came up and I needed a wider board, so I went in and grabbed the next larger size board, and the exact same shape, but it had "toe in". On the first wave I went for it just hung there with the "sea brakes" on, and I went a few yards and kicked out before getting thrown into the spin cycle. I went back to the smaller board with "no toe" fins and continued to rip down the line and beat the lip.
     I mention that story because those were good, powerful waves, and "no Toe" fins were the solution to my problem. The power of the wave does not seem to be the limiting factor as much as the size of the wave and potential higher velocities reached. For example, the biggest fails I've had with"no toe" fins were on double over head waves on the Outer Banks, and in Maine. Those are two very different waves, but in both cases the boards got moving too fast for the rails to bite into the wave face. The result is that you end up going so fast that you when you try and weight the rail it pushes back as you bounce, out of control down the wave. This happened on boards that would ordinarily be very competent in larger waves.
     So, above head and a half size waves, whether they are plunging, or slab may be about the limit of "no toe" fins in my experience and opinion.

supsurf-tw

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Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
« Reply #44 on: July 11, 2019, 06:00:49 AM »

 Yes, drag is necessary.....in powerful waves, but you don't want that drag in less than perfect waves. (see Stun Gun exp)

  .

 
     "
Outline curve is drag, rocker is drag, etc. A board with minimal drag would be a narrow piece of plywood with no fins and parallel rails from nose to tail.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2019, 06:07:37 AM by supsurf-tw »
Boards:

 
8-10 x 31 Egg
8-11 X 32 Double wing Fangtail Tom Whitaker
8-6 X 30 1\2  Inbetweener Tom Whitaker
8-4 x 30 Hyper quad Tom Whitaker (wife's now)
8-4 X 31 1\4.  Round (wide) Diamond Tail Quad Tom Whitaker
 9-4 X 30 1\2. Swallow Stinger Quad Tom Whitaker (ex wifes now)
10-0 Brusurf for teach