Author Topic: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins  (Read 147163 times)

jarvissup

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Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
« on: July 02, 2019, 11:59:57 AM »
     In 2015 I bought a JP 8’6”x29” 113 liter Surf Pro, and I loved it. The board was fast and performed amazingly compared to all the other boards I had ridden. I then bought the 8’2”x28” 103 liter Surf Pro, and it was awesome, but a little too small for choppy, windy, or wetsuit days. At this point I had become affiliated with JP, but they didn’t have a board that was between the 8’6” and the 8’2”, but it was allowed that I ride Imagine as they were distributed by the same company.
    The Imagine 8’4”x 28 ¼ 102 liter Impact was more stable than it’s dimensions would suggest and became my “anything but perfect” wave board. The problem was that in anything else than powerful, juicy waves it was too slow…..just like most of the other boards I had ridden.  A lot of boards seemed to slow for average wave conditions. The JP boards all come with “straight fins”. Straight fins means that the fin boxes in the board have “no cant” and more importantly, “no toe”.  This is why the JP’s are so fast. They have similar shapes and bottom contours to other popular boards, but the fin boxes are set up without “Toe in”. 
      The Experiment
So, I liked the Imagine, but it was too slow in anything but juice. I thought, why not put straight fins in it, and fix the problem. I was worried that I’d ruin the board’s performance, so I decided to put a ProBox fin system in that would allow me the latitude of some R&D.  The Probox system without it’s plastic inserts allowed me to mold fin bases with different degrees of  “Toe” and “cant” and to see what effect it had on the board’s performance.
      The experiment was a quick success, and the Imagine transformed into a fast, high performance board that worked in all kinds of conditions.  I rode that board for two years playing with different fin set up’s until I decided on what seemed to work best for 90+% of wave conditions I encountered from Hatteras to Maine.  “No Toe”, but a couple degrees of Cant.
       When I say 90+% I am referring to waves that are head and a half and smaller. I have had several larger days both on Hatteras and in New England, and on those waves “No Toe” fins were too fast.  I turned an 8’7” Stun Gun, a classically slow and controlled board, into an out of control, bouncing bronco on a double overhead day at the Hatteras point. When it gets big, a bit of “Toe in” helps slow and control the board. I should have known this as I never liked the JP’s in bigger surf, they were too fast, and hard to control.  This all makes a bit of sense when you realize that “straight fins” aren’t a new concept. Fish surfboards, originally designed in the 70’s came with straight fins. They were designed to turn small waves into fun. There are also a couple of companies, one in Australia, the other in Hawaii that make adjustable fin boxes for just this reason. Changing fin set up’s can really change a board’s performance, changing the “toe in” can radically turn a sluggish board into a fast , weak wave ripper. 
          Smart Friends
After doing all of this and starting to think about other ways to accomplish the same result without installing new fin boxes, I mentioned this to a couple of engineers that had been working on fins in their spare time. One of them created the fastest sup race fin ever flow tested, the other, literally, works for NASA.  I told them what I had found with years of experiments, and they looked at me and said; “of course”. “Toe in” is the idea that water does not run straight back, but instead is pushed outward and back as the board displaces water. While this is true, it is not constant, meaning that the amount water that is displaced varies with the weight of the rider, the width of the board, the bottom design of the board, and the speed of the board. 
       Sups are much wider and higher volume than surfboards, so using the same “toe in” formula creates a board with an unnecessary amount of drag.

Fin Box Designs and Experiments

Instead of changing fin boxes in boards to accomplish a “no toe” set up, I started grinding the bases on fins, and remolding them to fit back in boxes, but without the “toe in”. By remolding fins with a “reverse toe” angle I could neutralize the angle of the boxes that were installed in most boards. After measuring the angles of boxes of many boards it seems most have the same angle with a few drastic outliers.   
       I managed to make a few FCS sets of fins, but if not done perfectly, they are weak, and easy to snap. The Futures style base has been the best option for my experiments, and has proven strong enough to remold, and I have been running experimental fins in boards with these boxes for a couple of years.

Production

With each set of fins taking more time, energy and material than any market would support I wondered how hard it would be to have a batch produced.  I asked a couple of small board manufacturers some questions, and found a popular fin manufacturer in Asia. It took some emailing back and forth as I found out that they use the same molds for everyone’s fins and just change colors etc. However, after about six months of casually emailing and only about the amount of money it costs to buy a new sup, I have produced a small batch of fins. 

If you ride a thruster set up and want to make your, Futures based, board go faster, and perform better in average conditions, I, humbly, suggest you give these fins a try, and it’s a lot cheaper than buying board after board, or installing new fin boxes. I had a friend create a small, free website. I, literally, stand to make tens of…tens of dollars on this whole thing. If I sell through these, I’ll make straight rear quads, and maybe some different sizes.  Here’s a link to the humble site:


     
     

jarvissup

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ninja tuna

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Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2019, 02:02:06 PM »
Nice work.  I have loved the performance out of my boards with the no toe.  Changing the cant has been fun too with the pro boxes. 

Your fin sets come for a tri fin. Basically a twin set to complement a tri fin set.  How would I go about using these with a quad set up.  I was thinking about finding some straight up quad rears. Those should be easier than the front fins.  What are your thoughts on that.

jarvissup

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Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2019, 02:25:03 PM »
Ninja Tuna,
  Yes, I put these out with the idea that folks could use center fins that they already own. For me, I like a slightly smaller center fin in most boards.
   A set of straight Quads will work great, just like the JP Surf Wide worked well as a quad. Unfortunately, I haven't molded and produced the rear quads yet. I have a set of rear quads already to send and have molded, but I'm hoping to pay for future molds with funds that come back in from the current fins.
   Most shapers set the rear quads at the same "toe in" angle as the front fins, but I have seen a couple of boards that had straight quad rear fin boxes. If you happen to have a board with straight rear fin boxes, then your all set.

PonoBill

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Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2019, 04:29:00 PM »
My SimSUP, which has always been ridiculously fast, came with a set of Futures Controllers with the fin boxes fairly straight to start with. The front fins were offset nearly enough to make them totally straight. That, plus the flat bottom, are probably why the board is so fast down the line.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

TallDude

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Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2019, 07:22:19 PM »
My new SimSUP.

TallDude

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Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2019, 07:42:03 PM »
Here's an Infinity RNB..

OkiWild

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Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2019, 08:23:18 PM »
The website doesn't say anything about shipping. For me, it has to go by USPS, preferably Priority, to APO zip 96367. Is shipping included in that price?

PonoBill

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Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2019, 08:33:15 PM »
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

southwesterly

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Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2019, 08:41:38 PM »
This is the fastest and surfy-est stand up board I ever owned.

The fins are barely toed in.

jarvissup

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Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2019, 04:16:02 AM »
Yes, yes, Simmon's style boards are fast. What the straight fins do is make traditional style boards faster. So, you can take a good top to bottom performance board, and make it fast enough so you won't need a Simmons style board. It's basically JP'ing your futures based board.
     When I was experimenting on different boards, and I've had a lot, I made some traditionally slow board fast and fun in average waist high waves. For example; the 8'7" Stun Gun was actually fast in small surf. Boards like BillFoote's Rocket are amazing, but they become fun "rocket's" in small surf with straight fins. If you have a board with futures bases, and you want to make it faster and more fun, these fins are a fun option.

TallDude

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Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2019, 08:08:49 AM »
This is very interesting and may help the speed on my old green machine which has Futures and standard toe-in? If you look at the picture of the Infinity RNB above, it looks like Infinity has their own reduced toe-in Future mount side-bite fins. I wonder who makes them for Infinity?

jarvissup

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Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2019, 08:33:41 AM »
Tall Dude,
Yes, they'll make your old board faster. I don't think Infinity or anyone else is currently making "no toe" fins. That is likely just an optical illusion, I have a couple of sets of those fins that came with boards, they are standard fins.
    If you want to measure the amount of "toe in" a board has it's simple; using the center box as a guide, take a straight edge and draw a pencil mark straight up the board. Then install side fins, then measure from the front of the fin to the center line, and from the rear of the fin to the center line, the difference is the amount of "toe in" the shaper put in the fin boxes. Usually 1/4".

PonoBill

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Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2019, 08:38:16 AM »
Hmmm. Okay, I'll give those a try on my production Footie. It's my favorite all-around SUP board and a total quiver killer. But it ain't fast.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

TallDude

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Re: Multi Year Fin Experiment on "no Toe"(straight) Fins
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2019, 08:53:11 AM »
These look like no-toe. I'll have to swing by their shop and see.