Author Topic: The end of the beginning - SPG Wings (photo heavy post)  (Read 18398 times)

clay

  • Peahi Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 723
    • View Profile
    • www.clayisland.com
    • Email
Re: The end of the beginning - SPG Wings (photo heavy post)
« Reply #30 on: June 25, 2019, 07:52:26 PM »
Aloha,

So I just finished session 2 on a signature 4m.  Day 1 was flail city, towards the end I started to get ideas about what I was doing wrong.  So after watching videos and video of myself -  day 2 I was able to make the adjustments and stay balanced on the board and have control of the handkite.  Wind was very gusty either 20+ or low teens, the gusts I had good travel, the lulls I barely moved.  Not enough speed to get the foil to lift (2000 wing).  For me huge improvement in control from day 1 to day 2.

My best guess take away is that guys in the 200 pound and up club need bigger kites, or consistent 18+ conditions to get up on the foil.

Admin - do you have any feedback on the difference between 4m and 5m?
Aloha, I welcome and appreciate all responses of positivity and good feeling.

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOIE6FWr1SpWvbPJIIiEgog

PonoBill

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 22486
    • View Profile
    • Ponohouse is for sale. Great house but it's time for new adventures
Re: The end of the beginning - SPG Wings (photo heavy post)
« Reply #31 on: June 25, 2019, 08:11:16 PM »
I'm sure there's an efficiency aspect here. I remember when I first started waterstarting a zillion years ago that I wanted the biggest sail I could manage. But as my technique improved the sails I wanted got smaller, until starting was the last thing I was concerned about--my aim was matching the sail to surface conditions and board size. I expect this will be similar.
Ponohouse is for sale: http://www.ponohouse.com
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

Admin

  • Administrator
  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 4553
    • View Profile
    • StandUpZone
    • Email
Re: The end of the beginning - SPG Wings (photo heavy post)
« Reply #32 on: June 26, 2019, 04:36:17 AM »
Aloha,

So I just finished session 2 on a signature 4m.  Day 1 was flail city, towards the end I started to get ideas about what I was doing wrong.  So after watching videos and video of myself -  day 2 I was able to make the adjustments and stay balanced on the board and have control of the handkite.  Wind was very gusty either 20+ or low teens, the gusts I had good travel, the lulls I barely moved.  Not enough speed to get the foil to lift (2000 wing).  For me huge improvement in control from day 1 to day 2.

My best guess take away is that guys in the 200 pound and up club need bigger kites, or consistent 18+ conditions to get up on the foil.

Admin - do you have any feedback on the difference between 4m and 5m?

Hi Clay,

You need to make a trip to the Gorge so we can flail together.  :)

I am an ultra beginner foiler, so everything I say should be taken with that in mind.  It may all be wrong :).  I am 165 lbs.  When using the 4 meter, Bill's 280 wanted to rise with any forward motion.  I didn't feel like I could learn like that. It was too unruly.  I switched down to the 200 and it was more what I expected but it still lifted at surprisingly low speed.  On our one nice lighter wind day on the 5 meter and the 200 I found that if I would get moving on a reach just off the wind, position my back foot just in front of Bill's mast marker (I am borrowing his smaller board, thanks Bill!)  and my front foot at his front foot reference then a little back foot weighting would lift me.  This is all at very low speed.  If I bear off a little more I pick up speed and if I weight the back foot from there things happen too quickly for my current skills.  That position has me landing on the foil when I wipe out.  That hurts.  On that day the 5 felt really nice and very comfortable to manage in all wing positions.  That allowed me to focus more on flying the foil.  So, I am focused on reaching in a comfortable position so that I can fly and so that when I tap down I am not always wiping out.  I feel like that will get me the practice I need to make the first few steps of foiling feel more comfortable.  I think that later, if I become more comfortable heading a little more off the wind, I could foil on a smaller kit (air foil or water foil or both).  I essentially have none of the efficiency that Bill is probably talking about here.  I am sure there are nuances of Wing and Board position, not to mention rider motion, that will allow this to happen on smaller gear.

I had pictured a lot of back foot pressure on or behind the mast to get foiling.  So far, it is more like a very minor weighting of my back foot with it just in front of the mast.  That seems like a lot of lift from what I have read and that made me think that Dwight's suggestion of a smaller (water) wing may make things a little easier. 

« Last Edit: June 26, 2019, 04:57:27 AM by Admin »

PonoBill

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 22486
    • View Profile
    • Ponohouse is for sale. Great house but it's time for new adventures
Re: The end of the beginning - SPG Wings (photo heavy post)
« Reply #33 on: June 26, 2019, 06:47:03 AM »
It's sounds silly to say, but the way you get up on a foil isn't weighting your back foot, it's unweighting the front one. You keep your body forward, hips pushed forward over your front foot, back foot on the mast. Then you lift your front foot and put it back down. If you weight your back foot you'll never get your weight forward soon enough to catch the foil as it comes up, especially since the tilt as it comes up will toss you back.

Watch the Sam Pae videos. They are about surfing, but pitch control is the same in both cases.

Ten minutes behind a jet ski and you'll get this. I admit that not how I got started, but in the surf I only had to think about controlling the board. There's a lot of moving parts with the wing.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2019, 06:48:57 AM by PonoBill »
Ponohouse is for sale: http://www.ponohouse.com
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

clay

  • Peahi Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 723
    • View Profile
    • www.clayisland.com
    • Email
Re: The end of the beginning - SPG Wings (photo heavy post)
« Reply #34 on: June 26, 2019, 08:07:58 AM »
Aloha,

So I just finished session 2 on a signature 4m.  Day 1 was flail city, towards the end I started to get ideas about what I was doing wrong.  So after watching videos and video of myself -  day 2 I was able to make the adjustments and stay balanced on the board and have control of the handkite.  Wind was very gusty either 20+ or low teens, the gusts I had good travel, the lulls I barely moved.  Not enough speed to get the foil to lift (2000 wing).  For me huge improvement in control from day 1 to day 2.

My best guess take away is that guys in the 200 pound and up club need bigger kites, or consistent 18+ conditions to get up on the foil.

Admin - do you have any feedback on the difference between 4m and 5m?

Hi Clay,

You need to make a trip to the Gorge so we can flail together.  :)

I am an ultra beginner foiler, so everything I say should be taken with that in mind.  It may all be wrong :).  I am 165 lbs.  When using the 4 meter, Bill's 280 wanted to rise with any forward motion.  I didn't feel like I could learn like that. It was too unruly.  I switched down to the 200 and it was more what I expected but it still lifted at surprisingly low speed.  On our one nice lighter wind day on the 5 meter and the 200 I found that if I would get moving on a reach just off the wind, position my back foot just in front of Bill's mast marker (I am borrowing his smaller board, thanks Bill!)  and my front foot at his front foot reference then a little back foot weighting would lift me.  This is all at very low speed.  If I bear off a little more I pick up speed and if I weight the back foot from there things happen too quickly for my current skills.  That position has me landing on the foil when I wipe out.  That hurts.  On that day the 5 felt really nice and very comfortable to manage in all wing positions.  That allowed me to focus more on flying the foil.  So, I am focused on reaching in a comfortable position so that I can fly and so that when I tap down I am not always wiping out.  I feel like that will get me the practice I need to make the first few steps of foiling feel more comfortable.  I think that later, if I become more comfortable heading a little more off the wind, I could foil on a smaller kit (air foil or water foil or both).  I essentially have none of the efficiency that Bill is probably talking about here.  I am sure there are nuances of Wing and Board position, not to mention rider motion, that will allow this to happen on smaller gear.

I had pictured a lot of back foot pressure on or behind the mast to get foiling.  So far, it is more like a very minor weighting of my back foot with it just in front of the mast.  That seems like a lot of lift from what I have read and that made me think that Dwight's suggestion of a smaller (water) wing may make things a little easier.

Thanks, that's great feedback!

Ah man I am so stoked to get up the gorge, everytime you guys post photos the conditions look insane.  I might have a window in July, if so I'll reach out.
Aloha, I welcome and appreciate all responses of positivity and good feeling.

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOIE6FWr1SpWvbPJIIiEgog

clay

  • Peahi Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 723
    • View Profile
    • www.clayisland.com
    • Email
Re: The end of the beginning - SPG Wings (photo heavy post)
« Reply #35 on: June 27, 2019, 07:59:39 AM »
Well it was nuking yesterday, when I put in high teens and when I got out 30+.  4m is plenty of kite.  I managed to stay standing long enough to get the foil up, but I was so off balance I fell right away.  Spent a big chunk of the session kneeling and sitting.  Gave me plenty of time to practice controlling the kite.  Really easy to fly, the dual strut seems to be a good design, but then I have yet to try any other design.

Seems like a catch 22, need strong wind for big guys to get the foil up and then the water is so rough that balancing is a real challenge.   I'm thinking a much wider board like the beginner windsurf boards, 7'6" x 34" or some similar monstrosity.   In the meantime if there is enough wind today I'm going to the offshore side of the lake and hope the smoother water will help.  Yesterday was the most summer wind I have ever seen in Tahoe.
Aloha, I welcome and appreciate all responses of positivity and good feeling.

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOIE6FWr1SpWvbPJIIiEgog

Admin

  • Administrator
  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 4553
    • View Profile
    • StandUpZone
    • Email
Re: The end of the beginning - SPG Wings (photo heavy post)
« Reply #36 on: June 29, 2019, 04:35:12 AM »
After a couple days off, we were back at it yesterday.  We showed up to an empty beach and 15 gusting to 20 MPH.  This is great wind for my 5.  Initial frustration with uphauling in chop and losing ground finally committed us to the knee start.  That has a lot of benefits.  The big ones are stability in chop, you stay much more upwind during get-up, no hand adjustment after standing so you have immediate wing stability and you can already be in surf stance (with forward motion) if you plan it right.  I found that getting into the taking a knee (the Kapernick) position before lifting the wing helps a lot (as opposed to lifting the wing from a kneel).  Getting the front knee up and on your back toes of the back leg with the wing already overhead can be another fiddly step with chop on the rail.  I also learned that if you are kneeling and you want to get to a knee from there you can fly the wing one handed with your back hand and use the free hand on the board to help adjust.  My hand is on the second boom handle to comfortably fly the wing one handed with lift.  You can also get up from that position and use the free hand to push off of the deck.  That is an alternate option but both hands on the booms probably has more advantages. 

We also got in a bunch more foiling attempts and the progress is slow but sure.  The learning process is equal parts fun, humiliation and reward.  Possibly not equal.  :)

PS:  Swell City is pretty well empty now at 15 gusting to 20.  This is a beginning foiler's playground.  We are sailing full reaches now.  There is waist deep sand on the far side.  The current is still strong enough to keep you in place.  You can also just sit on the board for a minute with the wing on the water and let the current bring you back upwind if needed. 
« Last Edit: June 29, 2019, 09:14:56 AM by Admin »

clay

  • Peahi Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 723
    • View Profile
    • www.clayisland.com
    • Email
Re: The end of the beginning - SPG Wings (photo heavy post)
« Reply #37 on: June 29, 2019, 01:21:31 PM »
Excellent contribution!

I also watched that long German video, was able to see them doing knee starts and then to one knee, helps me visualize what you are referring to.  Wind died so it'll be a few days before I get another chance to try these.

Light wind the other day, so I launched from the offshore side and practiced low speed tacking back and forth switching hands and feet each time.  For me the best thing about the handkite is how easy it is to manage, especially the uphaul which is essentially effortless.  I get really bored flatwater paddling,  cruising with this kite is much more fun!

Being able fly downwind and then let the current bring you upwind sounds like an excellent way to learn.  I still trip out on the whole gorge setup, Surfing upriver blows my mind.
Aloha, I welcome and appreciate all responses of positivity and good feeling.

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOIE6FWr1SpWvbPJIIiEgog

Admin

  • Administrator
  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 4553
    • View Profile
    • StandUpZone
    • Email
Re: The end of the beginning - SPG Wings (photo heavy post)
« Reply #38 on: June 29, 2019, 03:15:36 PM »
For sure.  They put a lot of time into that video.  There is a lot of great footage of newer riders getting started.  The Knee start at the beginning of this one is really helpful as well.  You can see Dan making a lot of minor knee adjustments prepping for his start.  He goes from a kneel to the Kapernick with the kite already flying.  I struggle with that so I am trying to get all of those adjustments done (as close as possible) before the wing is flying.  That lets me use both hands to help.  He is also starting without getting is back toes into runner's start position.  That wasn't working for me.  I need those back toes on the deck to help push me  forward and up (but that might only apply to me).


« Last Edit: June 29, 2019, 03:18:20 PM by Admin »

Fishman

  • Sunset Status
  • ****
  • Posts: 325
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: The end of the beginning - SPG Wings (photo heavy post)
« Reply #39 on: June 29, 2019, 03:34:46 PM »
For me the best thing about the handkite is how easy it is to manage,

HANDKITE!!!  Finally a good name for this thing. It probably won't catch on because it doesn't have word wing in it but I'm using it anyway.
Hand-kite, no confusion with that.  Thanks Clay

Oops sorry for my ADD moment.
SupSurfMachine 9'9" longboard
SupSurfMachine  8'2" funboard

SanoSlatchSup

  • Peahi Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 855
  • San Clemente
    • View Profile
Re: The end of the beginning - SPG Wings (photo heavy post)
« Reply #40 on: June 29, 2019, 04:15:47 PM »
Well it was nuking yesterday, when I put in high teens and when I got out 30+.  4m is plenty of kite.  I managed to stay standing long enough to get the foil up, but I was so off balance I fell right away.  Spent a big chunk of the session kneeling and sitting.  Gave me plenty of time to practice controlling the kite.  Really easy to fly, the dual strut seems to be a good design, but then I have yet to try any other design.

Seems like a catch 22, need strong wind for big guys to get the foil up and then the water is so rough that balancing is a real challenge.   I'm thinking a much wider board like the beginner windsurf boards, 7'6" x 34" or some similar monstrosity.   In the meantime if there is enough wind today I'm going to the offshore side of the lake and hope the smoother water will help.  Yesterday was the most summer wind I have ever seen in Tahoe.
Interesting enough, this was a very similar thing a certain manufacturer's team rider was telling me yesterday. That in a nutshell, they're not as easy as they seem, and that he'd be surprised if you didn't see a bunch for sale on Craigslist (like SUPs were years back) when many find out that there's a pretty specific window of wind and conditions that'll be needed to be used in. IOWs, it's just not something to pull out when it starts getting a little too breezy and choppy to SUP or foil at your local break.

He also conveyed the stories from some of other professional watermen he was out testing with, and all felt and said the same sort of things more or less. Heck, it was pretty breezy yesterday afternoon, with some mild whitecaps even appearing out in the water, and try as we might, we couldn't to get him to pump it up, and let one of the really talented foil guys give try it. He just said there wasn't enough wind for it, and that he was simply saving him the time, energy, and frustration that he knew would be the only thing to come from it.

So now I'm pretty much just pumping the breaks on this whole thing, and will have to first see exactly what, where, and when these things are even usable in our neighborhood...cuz schlepping something just south of a grand that may just sit in the corner of my van more times than not...is not of that much interest to me at the moment.

Would love to hear from anyone in the SoCal area that's got theirs going, having fun with it, and thinks it's a worthwhile investment compared to all of the other things available to play on the water with around these parts.

EDIT: Btw, they did this testing out on a lake in the windy desert, and were not contending with the unpredictable ocean currents, swells, and small waves we were planning on playing with it in yesterday...so maybe that's another reason he nixed the idea of the first local tries just outside the surfline. :)
« Last Edit: June 29, 2019, 04:27:22 PM by SanoSlatchSup »
Me: 6'1"/200...5'11" & 6'0" Chelu Foil Boards...9'6" Bob Pearson "Laird Noserider"...9'6" Costa Azul Wide Body...14' Lahui Kai "Manta"...8'0" WaveStorm for when proning urges still hit, and 7'3" Chuck Glynn foil board backup.

Dwight (DW)

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 3291
    • View Profile
    • supSURFmachines
Re: The end of the beginning - SPG Wings (photo heavy post)
« Reply #41 on: June 29, 2019, 05:30:42 PM »
Cabrinha told their dealers 18 knots needed.

Admin

  • Administrator
  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 4553
    • View Profile
    • StandUpZone
    • Email
Re: The end of the beginning - SPG Wings (photo heavy post)
« Reply #42 on: June 30, 2019, 04:53:19 AM »
This is really two questions.  Is it super easy to learn?  How light a wind?

The wind threshold is going to depend on rider weight, foil size, wing size and experience.  My guess is that they had a 3 or 4 meter wing and a 1500'ish foil for full sized guys.   Naish (for instance) in their early videos was suggesting a 1500 foil wing and they only produce a 4 Meter wing.  A 5 meter wing with a Maliko 200 (2000) will foil a 165 lb (new) rider in 15 mph and likely much less wind with a skilled rider. Chan was lifting off at 115 lbs on the 3 meter and 1500 wing in the same wind...and keep in mind that we suck.  We went to the other side where it was lighter wind and flatter because that made it easier.  In the swell and stronger wind it was hard to keep these combos from foiling.

Riders that can already foil will probably pick it up quickly.  The rest of us still have the foil curve ahead of us.  I think that that will be pretty substantial.  But, if you have a high humiliation tolerance and can stand onlookers with that "I'm sorry for you" or "were you having a seizure out there?" look on their faces, you will be having a blast.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2019, 06:08:15 AM by Admin »

PonoBill

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 22486
    • View Profile
    • Ponohouse is for sale. Great house but it's time for new adventures
Re: The end of the beginning - SPG Wings (photo heavy post)
« Reply #43 on: June 30, 2019, 06:49:25 AM »
I expect wing range and efficiency will determine the wind range. If the sport takes off and persists there will be more efficient wings and wider range. The duotone boom starts at 115 which tells me they're considering a 2 Meter wing. The five meter takes 165-169 cm and the boom goes past that to 175 as I recollect. I'd certainly expect to see larger wings than five meter, but not much. While Admin was getting up with his 5 two days ago I was not with my four, but it was close. I'd say the wind was substantially less than 20 though some gusts might have reached higher. I'm reasonably certain a more accomplished wing foiler at or near my weight (230) would be up and flying.

So given a range of wing sizes I suspect 15mph up will be adequate to have fun.
Ponohouse is for sale: http://www.ponohouse.com
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

Admin

  • Administrator
  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 4553
    • View Profile
    • StandUpZone
    • Email
Re: The end of the beginning - SPG Wings (photo heavy post)
« Reply #44 on: June 30, 2019, 08:33:04 AM »
Duotone has a 2 Meter on their site already.  I asked about that at Big Winds (Chan will need one when we are on 3's) but they are not expecting any yet.