Author Topic: Lotsa health propaganda coming for 2020  (Read 89825 times)

RideTheGlide

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Re: Lotsa health propaganda coming for 2020
« Reply #135 on: August 09, 2019, 02:10:24 PM »
As a former career Law Enforcement Officer, I think it would be wonderful if we could snap our fingers and make some or even all types of firearms go away.  No one has a firearm, no one needs to protect their self from people with firearms if there aren’t any.  However, the genie has been out of the bottle for a long while.  How are you going to make someone who is a criminal turn in his firearms?  Anyone on here want to volunteer to be the guy to collect all the MS 13 weapons? 

When all these criminal people still have their firearms, do you expect other law abiding people not not be able to protect themselves against armed criminals?  Are you going to turn otherwise law abiding people into criminals if they balk at turning in their means of protection against armed criminals?  Anyone on here going to volunteer to go out to some of the rural counties in say, West Virginia, eastern Washington State, or Alabama and ask Bubba to hand over his AK?  The reason some of these guys own their semiautomatic rifles is because the government might some day come for those very rifles.

It’s dream world versus reality.
I am having trouble locating the stat, but my guess is your experience will back it up.  In a substantial number of firearm homicides, maybe even a majority, the killer obtained the gun somewhat recently. It seems like it was one or two years. I will have to do more digging and see if I can find the source. The point is that while an immediate change is unrealistic for the reasons you describe, getting the trend going in the other direction is infinitely better than doing nothing.
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RideTheGlide

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Re: Lotsa health propaganda coming for 2020
« Reply #136 on: August 09, 2019, 02:19:50 PM »
Also, as for the red flag bills, as distasteful as it is, it’s not a crime to be a hater.  And it’s not a crime to be weird and mysterious. I doubt most red flag bills would pass muster of a court review.  That’s one reason crazy people roam the streets everywhere.  They’re not considered dangerous until they kill someone.  What would stop someone who is anti firearms to call the police on anyone he/she knows owns a firearm under the pretense if a red flag condition?  People do that now, when someone is carrying completely legally, some of these anti firearms people call 911 to report a man with a gun to try to intimidate people from carrying legally.
They have been lighting up 911 in FL. They passed a law allowing open carry when fishing or on the way to fishing. People are walking around with handlines and AK47s in areas where open carry wasn't allowed before.
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Re: Lotsa health propaganda coming for 2020
« Reply #137 on: August 09, 2019, 03:55:14 PM »
Presumably you’ll have to start small: banning all guns from certain areas (except for LEOs). Then you start making those areas, and the number of them, steadily larger. Soon it will become a badge of pride to live in a gun-free area, and then being gun-free is aspirational. It’ll take many years of course. But surely it could be done? Give time for the gun culture attitudes to change in the US.

It sounds a bit like those old Wild West movies where you have to hand in your guns to the sheriff as you enter town.

SeldomScene

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Re: Lotsa health propaganda coming for 2020
« Reply #138 on: August 09, 2019, 06:52:42 PM »
Maybe.  But every time I see a gun free zone sign all I can think of is how law abiding people would leave the pistol at home, but the guy that’s going in to kill his ex boss or ex wife will not be deterred by such a sign.  Might as well put up a sign, don’t worry about being stopped by a legal carry citizen, we don’t allow them here.   

If you could, though, ban “assault rifles” sales, over a period of many years/generations you would have a lot less of them out there, they sort of go the way of the musket, after a few generations.  Then you wouldn’t have to hire single men with no family and a death wish to go try to collect them from those that wouldn’t voluntarily surrender them.  I honestly think it would take the Army to get all that done, which would be illegal and would likely lead to major civil unrest anyway.  Defining assault rifles legally is also problematic, they are so similar to any semi auto rifle used for hunting or target shooting. 

Both of my sons own tactical rifles.  One is a career Army Officer, who wears a full beard when he is in combat theatre, if you know what I mean, the other is a federal agent who is an Army National Guard Commissioned Officer.  Many tactical rifle owners have similar backgrounds.  It’s a shame a few idiots are causing all this trouble. 

Some of what you call gun culture folks are pretty committed.  I don’t see them going vegan and driving Priuses any time soon!
« Last Edit: August 09, 2019, 06:55:10 PM by SeldomScene »

SeldomScene

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Re: Lotsa health propaganda coming for 2020
« Reply #139 on: August 09, 2019, 07:02:35 PM »
As a former career Law Enforcement Officer, I think it would be wonderful if we could snap our fingers and make some or even all types of firearms go away.  No one has a firearm, no one needs to protect their self from people with firearms if there aren’t any.  However, the genie has been out of the bottle for a long while.  How are you going to make someone who is a criminal turn in his firearms?  Anyone on here want to volunteer to be the guy to collect all the MS 13 weapons? 

When all these criminal people still have their firearms, do you expect other law abiding people not not be able to protect themselves against armed criminals?  Are you going to turn otherwise law abiding people into criminals if they balk at turning in their means of protection against armed criminals?  Anyone on here going to volunteer to go out to some of the rural counties in say, West Virginia, eastern Washington State, or Alabama and ask Bubba to hand over his AK?  The reason some of these guys own their semiautomatic rifles is because the government might some day come for those very rifles.

It’s dream world versus reality.
I am having trouble locating the stat, but my guess is your experience will back it up.  In a substantial number of firearm homicides, maybe even a majority, the killer obtained the gun somewhat recently. It seems like it was one or two years. I will have to do more digging and see if I can find the source. The point is that while an immediate change is unrealistic for the reasons you describe, getting the trend going in the other direction is infinitely better than doing nothing.

That’s why they used have a waiting period to purchase firearms.  To keep a hothead from picking up a gun on the way to his ex’s house to off her in a fit of rage. That waiting period used to be for all, but now if you pass the National Instant Background System computer query you can pick up the same day.    So if you’re not a felon and haven’t been adjudicated as crazy you are good to go.  That’s way different than actually being crazy, I might add. 

I don’t know about recent shooters and when they got their firearms.  Seems like the Vegas shooter was well entrenched into his firearms collection for many years.  I think the El Paso shooter just recently got his rifle. 

RideTheGlide

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Re: Lotsa health propaganda coming for 2020
« Reply #140 on: August 09, 2019, 08:13:21 PM »
I am a former gun owner who decided it wasn't worth the risk when I started a family and now that they are older I could get one again but I have seen what's happening with guns and don't want to get back in. Plus my kids would not be happy with me even though they are young adults and 3 of the 4 are out of the house. They all learned to shoot and respect guns at the range with me. They were exposed and educated even though I didn't have any in the house. But they see them as more often being problems than solutions, as do I now. Anyway, that's where my viewpoint comes from.

Until the gun culture fades, I do want armed LEOs in public spaces where guns are prohibited. It is a viscous cycle of sorts; the more guns out there, the more people feel like they need them for defense and criminals feel like they need them. We are going to need help breaking that cycle. People will worry about a police state though; we would need some serious checks and balances. Life is really freaking complicated.
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Re: Lotsa health propaganda coming for 2020
« Reply #141 on: August 10, 2019, 02:22:38 AM »
Police state??? For heaven’s sakes, you guys are exasperating! What next? Afraid of an invasion of little green men from Mars so you must have an AK47 down your pants at all times? :)

How often do you guys *actually* use a gun in self-defence?

RideTheGlide

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Re: Lotsa health propaganda coming for 2020
« Reply #142 on: August 10, 2019, 04:32:21 AM »
Police state??? For heaven’s sakes, you guys are exasperating! What next? Afraid of an invasion of little green men from Mars so you must have an AK47 down your pants at all times? :)

How often do you guys *actually* use a gun in self-defence?
I am a former gun owner who favors much tighter controls now. I mentioned the "police state" comment because I hear it a lot when I suggest that in places with lots of armed LEO presence, no one else should be allowed to carry. They need to come up with tech that detects firearms in crowds without making everyone step through through a detector. But the idea requires that we be able to place a lot of faith in LEOs and there are still enough problems with bias and corruption to make that difficult. Before any current or former LEOs jump on me about saying that, those problems are far from universal but the incidence is still high enough to warrant mistrust by some groups.
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Re: Lotsa health propaganda coming for 2020
« Reply #143 on: August 10, 2019, 05:42:37 AM »
Yes, that comment was not aimed at you specifically RTG. I broadly support the positions you have expressed here. I knew that when you mentioned Police State you were referring to the fears of the NRA type fraternity, not you.

And btw for the record, I have been trained to use, and have used, rifles, which is quite unusual amongst the UK population (here, even the vast majority of the police do not carry guns). My father actually competed at the national level.

eastbound

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Re: Lotsa health propaganda coming for 2020
« Reply #144 on: August 12, 2019, 07:21:19 AM »
<<Riddle me this EB - who was it that said:

“Foolish liberals who are trying to read the Second Amendment out of the Constitution by claiming it's not an individual right or that it's too much of a public safety hazard, don't see the danger in the big picture. They're courting disaster by encouraging others to use the same means to eliminate portions of the Constitution they don't like.”

I'll give you a hint, he is not a friend of the NRA, and probably not a big fan of DT.">>

Riddle me this, BEAN: why cant you just say what YOU think? no more riddles--ive been quite clear about what i think

the "2nd amendment as check and balance" is laughable nra garbage propaganda

gun control can be well-effected without your claim (deep in the boring riddles) that the 2nd amendment, an important check and balance, would need to be dismantled--you then asked what "other checks and balances" id be ok dismantling---all loaded questions riddles garbage

try just stepping up to the plate and expressing a definitive opinion---scary----puts you out on a limb, but that's what makes for discourse

riddle that!
« Last Edit: August 12, 2019, 07:36:11 AM by eastbound »
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Bean

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Re: Lotsa health propaganda coming for 2020
« Reply #145 on: August 12, 2019, 08:00:30 AM »
This is my point (in this thread) EB, as I have stated several times. 

My POV is that it doesn't seem that we can have meaningful gun legislation without dismantling the 2nd Amendment and I would be reluctant to do that.  But maybe that's what's needed...

Contemporary case law tells us that the 2nd Amendment is still relevant today.

BTW, the quote, “Foolish liberals who are trying to read the Second Amendment out of the Constitution by claiming it's not an individual right or that it's too much of a public safety hazard, don't see the danger in the big picture. They're courting disaster by encouraging others to use the same means to eliminate portions of the Constitution they don't like.” was from Alan Dershowitz.

This is not a pro-gun or anti-gun position, it's more a matter of preservation of the Constitution. 


SeldomScene

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Re: Lotsa health propaganda coming for 2020
« Reply #146 on: August 12, 2019, 08:17:40 AM »
Police state??? For heaven’s sakes, you guys are exasperating! What next? Afraid of an invasion of little green men from Mars so you must have an AK47 down your pants at all times? :)

How often do you guys *actually* use a gun in self-defence?

Well, a recent example would be the off duty firefighter with a concealed firearm who captured the guy walking around Walmart with a rifle and body armor ....

eastbound

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Re: Lotsa health propaganda coming for 2020
« Reply #147 on: August 12, 2019, 08:22:44 AM »
your recent example is a truly rare example--the use of a legal firearm by a civilian to stop a criminal with an illegal firearm is mostly about macho fantasies that never happened
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Califoilia

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Re: Lotsa health propaganda coming for 2020
« Reply #148 on: August 12, 2019, 10:03:01 AM »
Well, a recent example would be the off duty firefighter with a concealed firearm who captured the guy walking around Walmart with a rifle and body armor ....
"Captured" doing something that was perfectly legal there according to their laws...but just with maybe poor timing? Seriously?

Oh what a tangled web we weave....

Quote from: WAPO - 8/11/19
Prosecutors on Friday charged Andreychenko, of Springfield, with making a terrorist threat, saying he recklessly disregarded the risk of causing a building evacuation by knowingly sowing fear in the wake of the El Paso mass shooting at the same retail chain.

Missouri is an open-carry state. In 2014, state law allowed anyone with a concealed-carry weapon permit to carry a weapon in the open, statewide, overriding local regulations. Starting in 2017, the state allowed individuals to carry concealed weapons without a permit in most locations and most people 19 or older to obtain a concealed carry permit, which can translate to carry rights in other states.

“Missouri protects the right of people to open carry a firearm, but that does not allow an individual to act in a reckless and criminal manner endangering other citizens,” Greene County Prosecuting Attorney Dan Patterson said in a statement, likening Andreychenko’s actions to raising a false fire alarm in a theater.

So what's the "cooling off period" after a mass shooting before you can once again walk into a crowded public area wearing your body armor, carrying a loaded assault rifle, and having other guns strapped to your person in these "yeehaw y'all" states? Lol... :o ;D
« Last Edit: August 12, 2019, 10:05:29 AM by SanoSlatchSup »
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eastbound

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Re: Lotsa health propaganda coming for 2020
« Reply #149 on: August 12, 2019, 10:29:49 AM »
the walmart "save":

guy1, legally carrying a gun, approaches guy2, who is also legally carrying a gun---gut1 says to guy2 "you look a little crazy and/or criminal to me--give me your gun"

now all these guys running around with guns makes complete sense to me!!!
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