Author Topic: Lotsa health propaganda coming for 2020  (Read 89816 times)

Bean

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 4211
    • View Profile
Re: Lotsa health propaganda coming for 2020
« Reply #120 on: August 08, 2019, 07:08:09 AM »
As I said before EB, it doesn't seem to me, that we can have meaningful gun legislation without dismantling the 2nd Amendment and I would be reluctant to do that.  But maybe that's what's needed...(a 2nd Amendment overhaul).

Contemporary case law tells us that the 2nd Amendment is still relevant today - yes even with respect to checks and balances not having to do with defense against tyrrany.  Think more along the lines of the checks and balances related to federal and state legislation.

Riddle me this EB - who was it that said:

“Foolish liberals who are trying to read the Second Amendment out of the Constitution by claiming it's not an individual right or that it's too much of a public safety hazard, don't see the danger in the big picture. They're courting disaster by encouraging others to use the same means to eliminate portions of the Constitution they don't like.”

I'll give you a hint, he is not a friend of the NRA, and probably not a big fan of DT.

Califoilia

  • Axis Demo Rep
  • Teahupoo Status
  • ******
  • Posts: 1510
  • San Clemente
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Lotsa health propaganda coming for 2020
« Reply #121 on: August 08, 2019, 10:31:06 AM »
Bean, gun "laws" and legislation don't have to infringe on the 2nd Amendment...they just have to put some teeth in the punishment for having/using a gun in a manner never intended under said Amendment.

Have all the guns you want, but brandish one in public in the commission of a crime and/or as intimidation, and go sit in jail for 20-30 years minimum. No BS excuse that the gun wasn't loaded or that you never intended to actually use it...well then don't actually bring it with you dimwit.  >:(

Also, to the "concealed" superheroes...as Johnny Cash would advise, "Don't take your guns to town son, Leave your guns at home Bill". If you wanna play cop, cool...then go sign up with an employment application, pass all the tests and training, then carry your gun and have some actual authority to use it on and off duty.

But we don't need any undercover fantasy judge, jury, and executioner wandering around out amongst us, no matter how grateful you think we unarmed, fleeing potential victims might be indebted to you for saving the day...while you also delay responding officers in dealing with you while you too are running around with a gun, instead of them continuing after the other dimwit citizen with probably a bigger, badder weapon than you have.

So let's leave the 2nd Amendment alone then, but make sure that we have laws/legislation that makes it a pretty long prison stay if one doesn't use their gun(s) as was intended back when it was enacted.

IOWs, go hunt with them if you need to in order to feed your family (killing animals for sport or just because you can is BS), or if you need protection if/when an intruder breaks into your home, or if/when you're called upon to form an armed citizen militia to go up against the government (good luck with the outcome of that one) then by all means go and dig your weapon(s) outta the closet.

But if someone's not using or owning them for one of those 3 things (feel free to add a 4th or 5th if I missed something), then they're not using them as intended by the 2nd Amendment, and need to be severely punished for it. JMO...OMMV.

EDIT: For clarification of where I coming from, I own multiple firearms, and don't plan on getting rid of any of them anytime soon. But I only use them on occasion at legal gun ranges for sport, and practice making sure I won't miss the intruder if it ever comes to that, and because I buy my food in the market I don't need to hunt, and don't see myself joining a militia anytime soon in my future. =)
« Last Edit: August 08, 2019, 10:46:30 AM by SanoSlatchSup »
Me: 6'1"/185...(2) 5'1" Kings Foil/Wing Boards...7'10 Kings DW Board...9'6" Bob Pearson "Laird Noserider"...14' Lahui Kai "Manta"...8'0" WaveStorm if/when the proning urges still hit.

RideTheGlide

  • Peahi Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 620
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Lotsa health propaganda coming for 2020
« Reply #122 on: August 08, 2019, 11:23:26 AM »
Bean,
The political reality is that grudging acceptance of reasonable controls with the 2nd left in force is the best we can hope for in the near future, so I am hoping for it.
2017 GoPlus 9'9"
2018 Hydro-Force fastblast 12'6"
2019 BKC 12'

RideTheGlide

  • Peahi Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 620
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Lotsa health propaganda coming for 2020
« Reply #123 on: August 08, 2019, 11:31:42 AM »
Sano,
I don't think punitive measures will help much. People who use a gun in a crime are willing to take a life and already know they are potentially looking at life or even death. The mass shooters often take their own lives or get into shoot outs with authorities they know they are going to lose.

When they do deep dives after the fact, they usually find some disturbing stuff. I think that if someone want a high capacity rapid fire weapon, they should have the deep dive done before the purchase. There are legitimate reasons for wanting that capability/capacity, but it should not be very easy to get; the reason should be a good one and you should be willing to be thoroughly vetted. Wanting to get more shots in during a block of range time is not a good enough reason in my book.
2017 GoPlus 9'9"
2018 Hydro-Force fastblast 12'6"
2019 BKC 12'

SUP Leave

  • Peahi Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 530
    • View Profile
Re: Lotsa health propaganda coming for 2020
« Reply #124 on: August 08, 2019, 12:06:28 PM »

Seems like the feds are going to approve a national red flag bill. Lindsey Graham is heading it up, Trump is in support of it as well as some Rs and most Ds..

I think the point is that someone can get their guns taken away in much the same way as you can get a restraining order. Family member, girlfriend etc tells the court and somehow the guns get into the hands of the government.

Easy enough to write the law I suppose, but imagine being at the point of the spear (police officer)having to somehow get all of the guns from someone that is dangerous.
Make paddleboarding great again!

Califoilia

  • Axis Demo Rep
  • Teahupoo Status
  • ******
  • Posts: 1510
  • San Clemente
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Lotsa health propaganda coming for 2020
« Reply #125 on: August 08, 2019, 12:52:15 PM »
Sano,
I don't think punitive measures will help much. People who use a gun in a crime are willing to take a life and already know they are potentially looking at life or even death. The mass shooters often take their own lives or get into shoot outs with authorities they know they are going to lose.

When they do deep dives after the fact, they usually find some disturbing stuff. I think that if someone want a high capacity rapid fire weapon, they should have the deep dive done before the purchase. There are legitimate reasons for wanting that capability/capacity, but it should not be very easy to get; the reason should be a good one and you should be willing to be thoroughly vetted. Wanting to get more shots in during a block of range time is not a good enough reason in my book.
RTG, I don't have any problem with the logic of "high capacity rapid fire weapon(s)" not needing to be in the hands of Joe Public, and putting restrictions on those I think are still within the boundaries of the amendment formers' ability (or lack thereof) to see into the future, and therefore meet the intent of the 2nd, and the common sense that I believe the formers would expect us to have in today's technology and society.

As far as the "Criminals will always be criminals" axiom as a reason for not severely punishing them for carrying a gun during their acts...I'm cool with enacting laws that would allow these criminals to turn themselves in ahead of time for life long incarceration if they already know they're going to use a gun in a crime, and probably gonna be caught anyway, thus saving us all time and money.

But since I'm pretty sure there's not gonna be a big rush of the gun-touting criminals who'd actually do that....maybe we get really tough on those who do carry a weapon while committing a crime....to the point that the "carrying the gun" part carries a much tougher sentence than whatever usual petty crimes these dill-weeds think they need to commit with it.

Me: 6'1"/185...(2) 5'1" Kings Foil/Wing Boards...7'10 Kings DW Board...9'6" Bob Pearson "Laird Noserider"...14' Lahui Kai "Manta"...8'0" WaveStorm if/when the proning urges still hit.

Califoilia

  • Axis Demo Rep
  • Teahupoo Status
  • ******
  • Posts: 1510
  • San Clemente
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Lotsa health propaganda coming for 2020
« Reply #126 on: August 08, 2019, 01:06:44 PM »

Seems like the feds are going to approve a national red flag bill. Lindsey Graham is heading it up, Trump is in support of it as well as some Rs and most Ds..

I think the point is that someone can get their guns taken away in much the same way as you can get a restraining order. Family member, girlfriend etc tells the court and somehow the guns get into the hands of the government.

Easy enough to write the law I suppose, but imagine being at the point of the spear (police officer)having to somehow get all of the guns from someone that is dangerous.
Yep, this seems like a poster bills for the, "You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold, dead fingers" crowd.

I also wonder if writing/rambling certain things on a forum could be construed by some as that person being "a half bubble off" or IOWs "dangerous"?

And talk about a 2nd amendment nightmare...now the guvmint gets to decide who's sane enough to have a gun when called to be in the militia that might need to form against that same guvmint deciding who gets to be armed for the fight. Good one. ::)

Weird world we're living in fo sho. :o
Me: 6'1"/185...(2) 5'1" Kings Foil/Wing Boards...7'10 Kings DW Board...9'6" Bob Pearson "Laird Noserider"...14' Lahui Kai "Manta"...8'0" WaveStorm if/when the proning urges still hit.

RideTheGlide

  • Peahi Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 620
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Lotsa health propaganda coming for 2020
« Reply #127 on: August 08, 2019, 04:34:01 PM »
Sano,
I don't think punitive measures will help much. People who use a gun in a crime are willing to take a life and already know they are potentially looking at life or even death. The mass shooters often take their own lives or get into shoot outs with authorities they know they are going to lose.

When they do deep dives after the fact, they usually find some disturbing stuff. I think that if someone want a high capacity rapid fire weapon, they should have the deep dive done before the purchase. There are legitimate reasons for wanting that capability/capacity, but it should not be very easy to get; the reason should be a good one and you should be willing to be thoroughly vetted. Wanting to get more shots in during a block of range time is not a good enough reason in my book.
RTG, I don't have any problem with the logic of "high capacity rapid fire weapon(s)" not needing to be in the hands of Joe Public, and putting restrictions on those I think are still within the boundaries of the amendment formers' ability (or lack thereof) to see into the future, and therefore meet the intent of the 2nd, and the common sense that I believe the formers would expect us to have in today's technology and society.

As far as the "Criminals will always be criminals" axiom as a reason for not severely punishing them for carrying a gun during their acts...I'm cool with enacting laws that would allow these criminals to turn themselves in ahead of time for life long incarceration if they already know they're going to use a gun in a crime, and probably gonna be caught anyway, thus saving us all time and money.

But since I'm pretty sure there's not gonna be a big rush of the gun-touting criminals who'd actually do that....maybe we get really tough on those who do carry a weapon while committing a crime....to the point that the "carrying the gun" part carries a much tougher sentence than whatever usual petty crimes these dill-weeds think they need to commit with it.
We have had the add on for guns used in crimes since the 70s and it doesn't seem that it has done any good. It has been applied unevenly to defendants with a clear racial bias and is at odds with criminal justice reforms to keep us from having a ridiculously high incarceration rate. One defendant was sentenced to 55 years on a pot charge that would have had a maximum of 15 years with no gun and the gun was not on his person (he was out of the car). I think 55 years is a much tougher sentence than 15. 
« Last Edit: August 08, 2019, 04:35:59 PM by RideTheGlide »
2017 GoPlus 9'9"
2018 Hydro-Force fastblast 12'6"
2019 BKC 12'

Califoilia

  • Axis Demo Rep
  • Teahupoo Status
  • ******
  • Posts: 1510
  • San Clemente
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Lotsa health propaganda coming for 2020
« Reply #128 on: August 08, 2019, 07:07:51 PM »
Depends on your state RTG...CA judges can tack on an additional 3 to 15 years in a firearms enhanced crime. Far from the 55 years the pothead got (and that all gun carrying criminals should get). But look at the bright side, at least you know that for the next 55 years there's one less gun carrying nitwit wandering in public or driving on the streets. My apologies if you thought I'd feel sorry for some poor ol innocent doper driving around with a gun in his car. Nope, if cops, and military personal can't be stoned or carry pot when they carry or drive with their weapons...dopers or criminals selling dope shouldn't have them in their possession (or in the vehicle we can assume he just got out of) either.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2019, 07:11:05 PM by SanoSlatchSup »
Me: 6'1"/185...(2) 5'1" Kings Foil/Wing Boards...7'10 Kings DW Board...9'6" Bob Pearson "Laird Noserider"...14' Lahui Kai "Manta"...8'0" WaveStorm if/when the proning urges still hit.

RideTheGlide

  • Peahi Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 620
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Lotsa health propaganda coming for 2020
« Reply #129 on: August 09, 2019, 10:13:25 AM »
Depends on your state RTG...CA judges can tack on an additional 3 to 15 years in a firearms enhanced crime. Far from the 55 years the pothead got (and that all gun carrying criminals should get). But look at the bright side, at least you know that for the next 55 years there's one less gun carrying nitwit wandering in public or driving on the streets. My apologies if you thought I'd feel sorry for some poor ol innocent doper driving around with a gun in his car. Nope, if cops, and military personal can't be stoned or carry pot when they carry or drive with their weapons...dopers or criminals selling dope shouldn't have them in their possession (or in the vehicle we can assume he just got out of) either.

The point is that increased penalties as a deterrent doesn't work.
2017 GoPlus 9'9"
2018 Hydro-Force fastblast 12'6"
2019 BKC 12'

PonoBill

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 25864
    • View Profile
Re: Lotsa health propaganda coming for 2020
« Reply #130 on: August 09, 2019, 10:45:17 AM »
Actually, they work pretty well when they are applied uniformly. But that's almost impossible and taking discretion out of the hands of judges and LEOs has lots of negative consequences.

Saying you'd need to dismantle the second amendment seems like a throw-away line. That isn't how lawmaking works. You'd have to reverse some particularly stupid supreme court decisions, but that happens all the time. Emphasizing the first third of the sentence would eliminate a lot of guesswork, and "the right to bear arms" leaves lots of wiggle room. Does that mean grenade launchers, tanks, tactical nukes. Apparently not. I don't see the second amendment being dismantled to support that level of rationality. Other levels remain available. How about one sporting rifle--bolt action, three shot. Period.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

RideTheGlide

  • Peahi Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 620
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Lotsa health propaganda coming for 2020
« Reply #131 on: August 09, 2019, 11:27:54 AM »
Actually, they work pretty well when they are applied uniformly. But that's almost impossible and taking discretion out of the hands of judges and LEOs has lots of negative consequences.

Saying you'd need to dismantle the second amendment seems like a throw-away line. That isn't how lawmaking works. You'd have to reverse some particularly stupid supreme court decisions, but that happens all the time. Emphasizing the first third of the sentence would eliminate a lot of guesswork, and "the right to bear arms" leaves lots of wiggle room. Does that mean grenade launchers, tanks, tactical nukes. Apparently not. I don't see the second amendment being dismantled to support that level of rationality. Other levels remain available. How about one sporting rifle--bolt action, three shot. Period.
I don't promote the idea of trying to dismantle the 2nd. I like the idea of limiting how much firepower you can have without a really good reason. Background checks for any sale; no loopholes. Deep dive background checks for anyone asking for more than a pistol or rifle with a limited number of shots and/or rapid fire. Semi-automatic for convenience is fine with a restricted rate of fire, maybe a shot every second or two. Again - you could get more or faster, but you need a reason and to submit to a through background check. As far as carrying, concealed or otherwise, for protection, I think that is fine unless other means of protection are provided. So if there are safety officers at a sporting event, you can trust that that's enough security or choose not to go, but you can't take a weapon in.
I really don't think that the idea that we need guns to stand up to the government is relevant. If you aren't in the Guard, the 2nd doesn't apply. If you are in the reserves or active military then it absolutely does not apply. A standing federal army is one of the things the 2nd was meant to protect us from. So the only reason I am against dismantling the 2nd is the political reality of the push back if we try.
2017 GoPlus 9'9"
2018 Hydro-Force fastblast 12'6"
2019 BKC 12'

Tom

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 2993
    • View Profile
Re: Lotsa health propaganda coming for 2020
« Reply #132 on: August 09, 2019, 01:41:00 PM »
The second amendment can be left standing as is and there can be protection from civilian use of military weapons. Lets look at how the 1st amendment is written and interpreted.
Quote
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
When the constitution says "or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press;" it is not absolutely giving everyone the right to say anything they want to. There are restrictions and laws against Libel, Slander, Defamation,  Advocacy of Illegal Action, and Fighting Words (words which "by their very utterance, inflict injury or tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace). 

That's the way the constitution works folks, it is up to interpretation. That is why there is a Supreme court to argue and decide what each word and phrase means.

SeldomScene

  • Rincon Status
  • ***
  • Posts: 210
    • View Profile
Re: Lotsa health propaganda coming for 2020
« Reply #133 on: August 09, 2019, 01:48:34 PM »
As a former career Law Enforcement Officer, I think it would be wonderful if we could snap our fingers and make some or even all types of firearms go away.  No one has a firearm, no one needs to protect their self from people with firearms if there aren’t any.  However, the genie has been out of the bottle for a long while.  How are you going to make someone who is a criminal turn in his firearms?  Anyone on here want to volunteer to be the guy to collect all the MS 13 weapons? 

When all these criminal people still have their firearms, do you expect other law abiding people not not be able to protect themselves against armed criminals?  Are you going to turn otherwise law abiding people into criminals if they balk at turning in their means of protection against armed criminals?  Anyone on here going to volunteer to go out to some of the rural counties in say, West Virginia, eastern Washington State, or Alabama and ask Bubba to hand over his AK?  The reason some of these guys own their semiautomatic rifles is because the government might some day come for those very rifles.

It’s dream world versus reality. 

SeldomScene

  • Rincon Status
  • ***
  • Posts: 210
    • View Profile
Re: Lotsa health propaganda coming for 2020
« Reply #134 on: August 09, 2019, 01:57:18 PM »
Also, as for the red flag bills, as distasteful as it is, it’s not a crime to be a hater.  And it’s not a crime to be weird and mysterious. I doubt most red flag bills would pass muster of a court review.  That’s one reason crazy people roam the streets everywhere.  They’re not considered dangerous until they kill someone.  What would stop someone who is anti firearms to call the police on anyone he/she knows owns a firearm under the pretense if a red flag condition?  People do that now, when someone is carrying completely legally, some of these anti firearms people call 911 to report a man with a gun to try to intimidate people from carrying legally. 

 


SimplePortal 2.3.7 © 2008-2024, SimplePortal