Author Topic: Lotsa health propaganda coming for 2020  (Read 89824 times)

eastbound

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Re: Lotsa health propaganda coming for 2020
« Reply #90 on: August 06, 2019, 10:46:32 AM »
where did i say to scrap the 2nd amendment?

i said the second amendment has little to do with contemporary us society

again tho Bean, you seem timid about expressing an actual POV of your own---do YOU think the 2nd amendment as written in the 1780's, some 250 years ago,  is relevant and applicable and important to contemporary US society?

also what are the checks and balances you refer to, as implied or defined in the second amentment? and how would those checks and balances work in our country today, 2019??
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Bean

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Re: Lotsa health propaganda coming for 2020
« Reply #91 on: August 06, 2019, 12:18:08 PM »

also what are the checks and balances you refer to, as implied or defined in the second amentment? and how would those checks and balances work in our country today, 2019??


That's what I was asking you EB. 

My POV is that it doesn't seem that we can have meaningful gun legislation without dismantling the 2nd Amendment and I would be reluctant to do that.  But maybe that's what's needed...

Contemporary case law tells us that the 2nd Amendment is still relevant today.

PonoBill

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Re: Lotsa health propaganda coming for 2020
« Reply #92 on: August 06, 2019, 12:35:25 PM »
I think the second amendment applies perfectly well to muzzle loaders.
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Bean

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Re: Lotsa health propaganda coming for 2020
« Reply #93 on: August 06, 2019, 01:35:27 PM »
That's just it Bill, it's hard to believe that the framers were simply thinking about the ownership of muzzle loaders when they crafted the 2nd Amendment.

PonoBill

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Re: Lotsa health propaganda coming for 2020
« Reply #94 on: August 06, 2019, 01:54:30 PM »
Why not? If you interpret the second amendment strictly by its language than it doesn't guarantee private ownership. We assume the intent was something else. Following that logic, it can be almost anything you want it to be.

Here's the full text: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

So, does that mean only in the context of a militia, which at the time of the framing was explicitly the US military, since it all it was is Militia, meaning an army composed of private citizen instead of professional soldiers?

If it's just that all citizens, regardless of their suitability to be armed, criminal record, demonstrated irresponsibility, mental illness, terminal stupidity, can have any gun they want, then why does the solitary defining sentence start off by talking about Militia?

The constitution isn't a perfect document, the framers were smart as hell, but they couldn't predict the future any more than we can. A lot of the intent and protections have been gamed away. An independent supreme court, Presidents unable to create law or declare war. It's an interesting read, I've been through it dozens of times. It takes about an hour to read the full text, the Bill of Rights, and the amendments. I'm continually amazed at what people claim the constitution does or doesn't say. It's a fairly simple document.
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RideTheGlide

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Re: Lotsa health propaganda coming for 2020
« Reply #95 on: August 06, 2019, 02:16:32 PM »
An interesting read on the history of the second amendment. It doesn't really "take a side". It just explains the various viewpoints and language being reconciled from a historical perspective. In fact, the NRA quotes a lot of what is in this as what was on the framers' minds, but without the context of the recent past causing it to be at forefront of their minds.

https://scholar.valpo.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1956&context=vulr

The issue was tightly intertwined with prohibiting a standing army under the control of the federal government. It is very clear that they had absolute resolve that people in their time and circumstance should not have their arms taken away. But the reasoning for it is largely if not completely out of context now, IMO. It seems clear that the part about the militia was very explicit for reasons of protecting states/citizens from the central government by force if necessary.
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PonoBill

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Re: Lotsa health propaganda coming for 2020
« Reply #96 on: August 06, 2019, 04:30:38 PM »
Probably, which makes sense in a time when the government consisted of fifty people and a dog, and the army didn't have things like tanks and nuclear weapons. They just got rid of a king, they didn't want another. In fact, if you read history closely they were a little nutty about that. They also didn't want democracy, that was viewed as the straight road to disaster.

The NRA typically uses the bits they want to use, one reason I ditched my membership long ago. They rarely use the entire sentence that comprises the second amendment, just that last bit.
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Night Wing

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Re: Lotsa health propaganda coming for 2020
« Reply #97 on: August 06, 2019, 04:33:13 PM »
Hi Night Wing,  Do you think there should be a ban on automatic weapons?

I would have no problems with banning for sale assault type weapons such as a AR-15's and/or AK-47's if these weapons are fully automatic. These type of weapons aren't really sport hunting weapons like a bolt action deer rifle is or semi-automatic shotgun which is basically used for wing shooting.

At the present time, all fully automatic weapons are illegal to buy and own except if you have collector's permit to buy and own a fully automatic weapon. One of my college friends I have known since I was 18 years old, he has a collector's permit and he owns a fully automatic Thompson Sub Machine gun in 45 caliber. I also know he owns a fully automatic WW2, M-1 Carbine in 30 caliber.

Getting back to the AR-15's and AK-47's sold in gun establishments. These firearms are semi-automatic and since they are semi's, they are "legal" under the present gun laws. The problem with these firearms, it doesn't take much "tinkering with" so make them fully automatic.
 
There are some politicians in the House and Senate who don't want the general population of the US to be able to "buy and own" firearms of any kind. Since I was young, I have never trusted politicians.

Say a politician writes a bill banning "all" automatic weapons. Even though two of my shotguns are semi's, the politician could say my shotguns are fully automatic, even if he/she knew they are not fully automatic, but his/her hidden agenda is to disarm the legal gun owning general population and then, my semi-auto shotguns would be illegal.

The government knows I have long guns and handguns in my possession since I had to fill out a Form 4473 when I bought them. On a 4473, you can purchase 4 firearms at one time. Lets say I put 3 shotguns on the form under the heading of "Long Gun". When the store clerk calls NICS for the background check, NICS is going to ask, Long Gun or Handgun. NICS never asks "how many long guns" so for all intent and purposes, NICS thinks I bought one (1) long gun.
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RideTheGlide

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Re: Lotsa health propaganda coming for 2020
« Reply #98 on: August 06, 2019, 04:55:22 PM »
I think the idea that some politicians done't want Americans to be able to buy and own any weapons is a straw man argument. I would like you to specifically name a few and reference something they said or did that is evidence of that belief.

I agree that fully automatic weapons should not be available and would go a step further and say that in order to have a high capacity rapid fire semi automatic firearm you need to have just cause. Many of them fire 3 rounds per second with a 30 round clip that can be swapped out in about 5 seconds. So 100 rounds in under a minute. I think there should be a limit to how much firepower you can carry out in public spaces, particularly concealed.
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eastbound

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Re: Lotsa health propaganda coming for 2020
« Reply #99 on: August 06, 2019, 06:54:59 PM »
Bean, your question below states that the 2nd Amendment is one of a number of "checks and balances within the constitution":

"EB, if you are saying that we should scrap the 2nd Amendment, are there other checks and balances within the Constitution that you are also prepared to let go?"

you ducked my question about how the 2nd amendment can be considered a check and balance in 2019

i see the concept of militias checking and balancing any part of our contemporary government today--local state or federal--as ridiculous

like the story of this armed idiot taking it into his own hands against our "corrupt" govt:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/22/us/pizzagate-attack-sentence.html





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Bean

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Re: Lotsa health propaganda coming for 2020
« Reply #100 on: August 06, 2019, 08:18:35 PM »

i see the concept of militias checking and balancing any part of our contemporary government today--local state or federal--as ridiculous


Never say never, but I would agree and hope that checking against tyranny would be highly unlikely.

The checks and balances related to the 2nd Amendment are not necessarily limited to gun control or state vs federal rights.  The concept of collective rights and individual rights are defined in related contemporary case law.

So, how do we get meaningful legislation without dismantling the 2nd Amendment?

eastbound

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Re: Lotsa health propaganda coming for 2020
« Reply #101 on: August 07, 2019, 03:43:10 AM »
check into legislation called "gun control"

check into assault and military weapons bans

check into smart guns

i could go on and on--and there'd be fewer deaths

then check into mcconnell and repubs' continual and complete stonewall, as paid for by NRA, on any issues to restrict gun manufacturing sales and access---facts---and people keep dying!!!

checks and balance emanate from the 2nd amendment?? in our current siciety?? hogwash---explain whatever caselaw you reference and how it reinforces checks and balances--you cant!!
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RideTheGlide

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Re: Lotsa health propaganda coming for 2020
« Reply #102 on: August 07, 2019, 05:24:33 AM »
check into legislation called "gun control"

check into assault and military weapons bans

check into smart guns

i could go on and on--and there'd be fewer deaths

then check into mcconnell and repubs' continual and complete stonewall, as paid for by NRA, on any issues to restrict gun manufacturing sales and access---facts---and people keep dying!!!

checks and balance emanate from the 2nd amendment?? in our current siciety?? hogwash---explain whatever caselaw you reference and how it reinforces checks and balances--you cant!!
One of the checks that should be enforced is limiting the power McConnell has. Scheduling bills for votes is supposed to be more of an administrative duty to eliminate chaos from senators arguing over what bill should be discussed and voted on next. He is not supposed to kill bills by never bringing them to the floor. One man is not supposed to control what legislation can be passed in a democratic republic. Even a presidential veto can be overridden. McConnell's implicit veto can not.
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eastbound

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Re: Lotsa health propaganda coming for 2020
« Reply #103 on: August 07, 2019, 06:07:05 AM »
well said--and mcconell's veto power is for sale!!

nra bought the whole subscription, with auto-renew!!

that guns be readily available, on hand, as a "check and balance" on our government, for any idiot(s) with a gun to decide to implement, is effing scary.

we are reaping what's been sown.................

hope the milk's not hopelessly spilt already...........
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Bean

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Re: Lotsa health propaganda coming for 2020
« Reply #104 on: August 07, 2019, 06:14:47 AM »
that guns be readily available, on hand, as a "check and balance" on our government, for any idiot(s) with a gun to decide to implement, is effing scary.

No one (in this thread) is saying that

 


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