Author Topic: Lotsa health propaganda coming for 2020  (Read 10361 times)

SanoSlatchSup

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Re: Lotsa health propaganda coming for 2020
« Reply #165 on: August 12, 2019, 05:23:32 PM »
Apparently there is a law, "making a terrorist threat in the second-degree". 

According to one report, "Police say panic ensued and shoppers went scurrying out of the building as Andreychenko allegedly walked around pushing a shopping cart and recording video on his phone."

BTW, I thought my sidewalk analogy was pretty good, sorry it didn't register for you.

I'm sorry Bean, I should have linked you to the WAPO article I quoted, because it wasn't the "panic ensued and shoppers went scurrying out of the building as Andreychenko allegedly walked around pushing a shopping cart and recording video on his phone, it was the Walmart employee who pulled the fire alarm as directed by his supervisor that got people "scurrying out of the building"...
Quote from: WAPO 8/11/19
Watching the armed man move down the aisles with a shopping cart, a store manager told an employee to pull the fire alarm to get people out of the store, believing that Andreychenko would open fire. Andreychenko said he, too, left the store at that point, police said. Surveillance footage captures shoppers fleeing.
....including the guy in the body armor w/ AR still hanging from his shoulder.

So no, it wasn't the guy w/ the assault rifle that caused most of the shoppers who didn't even know he was in the store to get them "scurrying out of the building", but rather the store manager who panicked seeing a guy doing something completely legal in the "yeehaw y'all" state of MO who got them all running out the store.

Cracks me up that legally armed guy #2 who actually drew, and aimed his weapon to "capture" legally armed guy #1 ...who never actually touched, raised, much less aimed any of his guns at anyone...yet legally gun-toting, aiming and ready to shoot someone guy #2 is a hero, and legally gun-carrying guy who never touched his weapon is a "terrorist". Only in 'Merica!  :D
« Last Edit: August 12, 2019, 05:25:42 PM by SanoSlatchSup »
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SeldomScene

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Re: Lotsa health propaganda coming for 2020
« Reply #166 on: August 12, 2019, 05:43:15 PM »
walking into a walmart with a shouldered AR, and a holstered sidearm, clad in body armor is completely legal in MO--there are no laws that forbid this act in the state of MO

Apparently there is a law, "making a terrorist threat in the second-degree". 

According to one report, "Police say panic ensued and shoppers went scurrying out of the building as Andreychenko allegedly walked around pushing a shopping cart and recording video on his phone."

BTW, I thought my sidewalk analogy was pretty good, sorry it didn't register for you.


People are panicking when they hear a motorcycle  back fire. The point I'm making is that the 2nd amendment arguments are inconsistent. Why is carrying  an assault rifle a terrorist act in one instance and not another?

Er, because he didnít shoot it?  In the case if this guy, carrying a rifle through a Walmart just after a highly publicized Walmart shooting, his absolute right to bear arms probably is tempered by the Shouting Fire in a Crowded Threatre concept.  Itís a Supreme Court decision regarding the absolute right of free speech. 

Bean

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Re: Lotsa health propaganda coming for 2020
« Reply #167 on: August 12, 2019, 05:52:02 PM »
walking into a walmart with a shouldered AR, and a holstered sidearm, clad in body armor is completely legal in MO--there are no laws that forbid this act in the state of MO

Apparently there is a law, "making a terrorist threat in the second-degree". 

According to one report, "Police say panic ensued and shoppers went scurrying out of the building as Andreychenko allegedly walked around pushing a shopping cart and recording video on his phone."

BTW, I thought my sidewalk analogy was pretty good, sorry it didn't register for you.


People are panicking when they hear a motorcycle  back fire. The point I'm making is that the 2nd amendment arguments are inconsistent. Why is carrying  an assault rifle a terrorist act in one instance and not another?

Tom, it really just comes down to intent.  In this case, he apparently got the reaction he was looking for. 

Whether  people were frenzied by Andrechenko, or the related fire alarm, the responsibility falls on Andrechenko.  Lucky no one was injured. 

I hope we do adopt some meaningful gun legislation, but not at the expense of diminishing our Constitutional rights. 

SeldomScene

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Re: Lotsa health propaganda coming for 2020
« Reply #168 on: August 12, 2019, 06:10:29 PM »
mind reader, Seldom? nah, but i do read the papers

but maybe you should do a bit more reading? If not time consuming research, like, at least some reading beyond "periodically"--if you want to have a meaningful opinion....

and you really think there's an analogy between a medical first responder and some self-appointed untrained moron hero with a gun?

wow--not sure reading or research will fix that!

Well, how bout this yes or no scenario then.  A couple months ago, a 70 year old guy here in my town was walking on a well used trail here.  Unprovoked, and out of nowhere, a crazy guy stabbed him repeatedly in the chest several times, killing him.  One of my sons is a commissioned officer in the US Army.  (I know that scares you but bear with me.). He has a BS as well as a Masters Degree, and is a Special Operations Command combat vet. (more scary stuff for you).  Afghanistan, Syria, Iraq, a few other places.  He has a good head on his shoulders and knows what to do and how to do it.  And he has a concealed carry permit.  Do you think the dead stabbed guy wishes my son, or someone like him, was present and armed when he was confronted then attacked?   Yes or no. 

As an aside, this same son was 10 when he was attacked by a pit bull on a similar trail.  (Sorry pit bull lovers).  I was off duty and armed and I put one in thatís dogs brain.   But I cannot compared this to a civilian being armed because I was an LEO at the time. But my son was happy I was armed while off duty. 

Iím sure youíll come up with some idealogical mumbo jumbo to try to twist this a way to suit your beliefs, but it Iíll be good entertainment. 

Tom

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Re: Lotsa health propaganda coming for 2020
« Reply #169 on: August 12, 2019, 06:13:31 PM »
Intent??? Now we need mind-readers to decide who's a terrorist and who is just a 2nd amendment avocate

Bean

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Re: Lotsa health propaganda coming for 2020
« Reply #170 on: August 13, 2019, 03:43:21 AM »
In the MO case, the prosecutor will need to prove that the young man intended to commit the crime that he is charged with.  There will be specific elements that the prosecutor will have to prove. The court (likely a jury) will then have to agree whether or not that the Prosecutor has met the burden of proof.

Ordinarily there might not be a case here, but in the wake of the recent shootings, MO will make an example in this instance for sure.

eastbound

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Re: Lotsa health propaganda coming for 2020
« Reply #171 on: August 13, 2019, 03:53:01 AM »
mind reader, Seldom? nah, but i do read the papers

but maybe you should do a bit more reading? If not time consuming research, like, at least some reading beyond "periodically"--if you want to have a meaningful opinion....

and you really think there's an analogy between a medical first responder and some self-appointed untrained moron hero with a gun?

wow--not sure reading or research will fix that!

Well, how bout this yes or no scenario then.  A couple months ago, a 70 year old guy here in my town was walking on a well used trail here.  Unprovoked, and out of nowhere, a crazy guy stabbed him repeatedly in the chest several times, killing him.  One of my sons is a commissioned officer in the US Army.  (I know that scares you but bear with me.). He has a BS as well as a Masters Degree, and is a Special Operations Command combat vet. (more scary stuff for you).  Afghanistan, Syria, Iraq, a few other places.  He has a good head on his shoulders and knows what to do and how to do it.  And he has a concealed carry permit.  Do you think the dead stabbed guy wishes my son, or someone like him, was present and armed when he was confronted then attacked?   Yes or no. 

As an aside, this same son was 10 when he was attacked by a pit bull on a similar trail.  (Sorry pit bull lovers).  I was off duty and armed and I put one in thatís dogs brain.   But I cannot compared this to a civilian being armed because I was an LEO at the time. But my son was happy I was armed while off duty. 

Iím sure youíll come up with some idealogical mumbo jumbo to try to twist this a way to suit your beliefs, but it Iíll be good entertainment.

lotta stabbed guys wish someone shot their stabber---- but your story is useless to the discussion, and that you think it has any relevance confuses me--your son, on the other hand, is an incredible human, and our country is lucky to have capable guys like him protecting us--you shoild be proud him--but, on the other other hand, if you cant see the irrelevance of your little fictions (cant even call them anecdotes), ill pass on commenting further--and you shd be embarrassed of yourself

thank God for our excellent US Military and our law enforcement community which our country benefits from--if you think youve got some monopoly on that, you really are a fool
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eastbound

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Re: Lotsa health propaganda coming for 2020
« Reply #172 on: August 13, 2019, 04:01:36 AM »
Intent??? Now we need mind-readers to decide who's a terrorist and who is just a 2nd amendment avocate

L O L

well said

fact is the guy broke no laws, as exist on the books---seems maybe the problem is the laws?---doye!!!--like why the eff shd guys be able to legally walk around arm armed with military killing machines

Why not RPG's?--no specificity in the 2nd amendment about which "arms" can be born

so hilarious---untrained guys walking around with guns need to be vigilant about reading the minds and engaging psych diagnoses of the other guys with guns, and get those guys!!--you know: good guys with guns get the bad guys with guns!!---all so we are "protected"

cant make this shit up----cuz it's real
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Bean

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Re: Lotsa health propaganda coming for 2020
« Reply #173 on: August 13, 2019, 04:49:42 AM »
fact is the guy broke no laws, as exist on the books---

He has been charged with a felony...

eastbound

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Re: Lotsa health propaganda coming for 2020
« Reply #174 on: August 13, 2019, 05:34:04 AM »
charged means he's been charged--in fact, he has been charged---bernie goetz was charged---OJ was charged--i said that my understanding of the situation sums to his not having broken any laws on the books---i am going to be very entertained by this court case---maybe more than having dershowitz looked into, which will finally be happening

you "dont read the new yorker anymore"---read the national review much?

nice lil piece by a conservative prof at berkeley

https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/08/universal-background-check-law-would-not-violate-second-amendment/

the 2nd amendment crap is kinda debunked at this point

rpg's anyone??
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eastbound

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Re: Lotsa health propaganda coming for 2020
« Reply #175 on: August 13, 2019, 06:33:30 AM »
also, back to the missouri walmart:

what if guy3, who is carrying a ruger security 6 357 mag in stainless with a 4" barrel (gorgeous piece), pulls into the walmart parking lot and observes guy1 with a shouldered AK and a holstered pistol filming himself with with his phone, while an angry guy2 threatens him with a pistol??

what is to prevent guy3 from blowing away guy2? acc to missouri law guy3 can legally shoot/kill guy2 under those circumstances

who's the hero?? who's the criminal??

doesn't matter to the dead guy--who wouldnt be dead if these guys werent walking around carrying various versions of efficient lethal weapons, for no good reason, putting themselves and the general public at risk, is case they do something lethal and dumb--while making an instantaneous lethal decision is a confused stressful moment

everyday life in the world of humans can get angry stressful confused overtired etc etc--mixing guns with humans and everyday life makes no sense

thanks but we dont need another hero


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PonoBill

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Re: Lotsa health propaganda coming for 2020
« Reply #176 on: August 13, 2019, 06:46:46 AM »

Well, how bout this yes or no scenario then.  A couple months ago, a 70 year old guy here in my town was walking on a well used trail here.  Unprovoked, and out of nowhere, a crazy guy stabbed him repeatedly in the chest several times, killing him.  One of my sons is a commissioned officer in the US Army.  (I know that scares you but bear with me.). He has a BS as well as a Masters Degree, and is a Special Operations Command combat vet. (more scary stuff for you).  Afghanistan, Syria, Iraq, a few other places.  He has a good head on his shoulders and knows what to do and how to do it.  And he has a concealed carry permit.  Do you think the dead stabbed guy wishes my son, or someone like him, was present and armed when he was confronted then attacked?   Yes or no. 

As an aside, this same son was 10 when he was attacked by a pit bull on a similar trail.  (Sorry pit bull lovers).  I was off duty and armed and I put one in thatís dogs brain.   But I cannot compared this to a civilian being armed because I was an LEO at the time. But my son was happy I was armed while off duty. 

Iím sure youíll come up with some idealogical mumbo jumbo to try to twist this a way to suit your beliefs, but it Iíll be good entertainment.

It doesn't require mumbo jumbo, just some basic stats and facts. The most important being your kid wasn't there. With the ridiculous number of weapons in this country, and the ridiculous number of people who think carrying a weapon is going to save them or others despite generally a complete lack of training, no one was there. As a former LEO you know what you're writing is bullshit. The number of crimes that are actively prevented by trained law enforcement, armed, paying attention, and willing to intervene is minuscule--that's why it's always news, and why the NRA pounces on every incident--because it's vanishingly rare. The number of Americans killed by guns is not. 40,000 people killed by shootings each year. How many of those did you prevent?
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Bean

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Re: Lotsa health propaganda coming for 2020
« Reply #177 on: August 13, 2019, 06:57:38 AM »
EB, I could understand why you think OJ is innocent and the New Yorker publishes unbiased news, but why defend Andrechenko?

You might feel differently if one of the frenzied had gotten mowed down by a delivery truck as they were making their escape from the store.   

As Iíve said before, I hope our law-makers can arrive at some meaningful resolution without butchering the 2nd Amendment.

Tom

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Re: Lotsa health propaganda coming for 2020
« Reply #178 on: August 13, 2019, 07:09:32 AM »
No one is defending Andywhatever,  we are pointing out the absurd defence and absurd interpretation of the 2nd amendment

RideTheGlide

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Re: Lotsa health propaganda coming for 2020
« Reply #179 on: August 13, 2019, 07:14:40 AM »
your recent example is a truly rare example--the use of a legal firearm by a civilian to stop a criminal with an illegal firearm is mostly about macho fantasies that never happened

I donít have time to research how often it happens, but I do read about it periodically.  So youíre a mind reader, too?  And a psychologist?  And like to generalize a stereotype that fits your political narrative?  Just keep on pretending that it never happens , if your desired narrative suits you.  Pretend that CPR trained people donít save lives once in a while, and that first aid trained people donít save lives once in a while, too.

Here is some research info for you:
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/how-the-good-guy-with-a-gun-became-a-deadly-american-fantasy

A bit of it (has links to sources in article):

A reality check
Most gun enthusiasts donít measure up to the fictional ideal of the steady, righteous and sure shot.

In fact, research has shown that gun-toting independence unleashes much more chaos and carnage than heroism. A 2017 National Bureau of Economic Research study revealed that right-to-carry laws increase, rather than decrease, violent crime. Higher rates of gun ownership is correlated with higher homicide rates. Gun possession is correlated with increased road rage.

There have been times when a civilian with a gun successfully intervened in a shooting, but these instances are rare. Those who carry guns often have their own guns used against them. And a civilian with a gun is more likely to be killed than to kill an attacker.


Quoting myself as the post seems to have been lost in the shuffle or possibly an answer to the "haven't done research" question was ignored.

Also, since we are telling anecdotal stories, here is what happened to a good guy with a gun:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/04/us/alabama-mall-shooting-autopsy.html

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