Author Topic: Next Level Foiling with Small Tail  (Read 20499 times)

Beasho

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Next Level Foiling with Small Tail
« on: June 18, 2019, 02:04:46 PM »
I have been testing big (ger) wings with small tails for a while.  I found that the GoFoil IWA flies ĎOKí with the small tail until you move your front foot back, way back.  Then it flies great.

The tail serves as a STABILIZER.  My go-to setup has been the IWA with the KAI rear wing and tall mast.  With this setup I rarely if ever overfoil.

Since the winter is over the size has come down.  It was small enough recently, 4 to 5 foot faces, that I installed the Maliko 200 on the Tall mast with KAI tail.  I had never flown the BIG wing with the small tail.  However I figured I would give it a try.

IT WAS FANTASTIC! It flew.  It flew really, really well.  The key is having the ability to shift you front foot BACK 4 Ė 5 INCHES from the usual takeoff stance.

I have had great results with the Cabrinha adjustable straps.  It extends up to 11Ē and allow for 5 inches of adjustability on my front foot.   
The smaller tail reduces the stabilization effect allowing for a more twitchy, pumpy feel.  AND the Big Wing didnít feel slow and lumbering. 

Here I was flying on the IWA with KAI tail.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2019, 02:18:12 PM by Beasho »

Beasho

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Re: Next Level Foiling with Small Tail
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2019, 02:08:47 PM »
Conditions were arguable 'Bad' and I was flying all over the place, powered up on 5 ft @ 8 second stuff through chop.

10 minutes of total flight time is absurd!  Longest rides were over 400 yards. 

Big Wings with Small Tails WORK!
« Last Edit: June 18, 2019, 02:13:33 PM by Beasho »

808sup

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Re: Next Level Foiling with Small Tail
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2019, 06:58:08 PM »
Iíve seen a few here who have cut down the Maliko tails while using the larger front wings. I think it may make the foil feel looser and a bit easier to pump. Maybe a little less lift in the trade off.
Beasho, you need to visit here and work on turning the 10min. of flight time into 10 miles. Iím making some progress. Fell twice (yard sales) and came off foil about five more times. Still got a ways to go but if it were easy, everyone would be doing it. Iím hooked!

Beasho

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Re: Next Level Foiling with Small Tail
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2019, 02:35:44 PM »
Iíve seen a few here who have cut down the Maliko tails while using the larger front wings. I think it may make the foil feel looser and a bit easier to pump. Maybe a little less lift in the trade off.
Beasho, you need to visit here and work on turning the 10min. of flight time into 10 miles.

Just when I think I have it good in California  :o

You guys in Maui are pushing it. 

The "less lift" theory comes from the feeling on the front foot.  However THE FRONT WING IS STILL THERE generating 100% of the same lift.  The ironic things is that the small tail wing produces LESS downforce.  Less downforce means less drag and therefore should result in higher speeds and more ultimate lift on the front wing. 

I was skeptical until I tried it.  BUT I refer to it as "Next Level" because it does require better pitch control with your front foot which comes with practice. 

The benefits are 1) More Speed 2) More Lift 3) Less Overfoil

Should fly better!

jondrums

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Re: Next Level Foiling with Small Tail
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2019, 10:43:18 PM »
I have a thread on my cut down rear wing, which is about halfway between the maliko/iwa rear wing and the kai rear wing.  I still really like it, for all the same reasons you listed.  It really made the setup come alive, its faster, more maneuverable, and much more manageable on steeper stuff because it won't overfoil.  Not for beginners because it requires very active pitch control.

Beasho

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Re: Next Level Foiling with Small Tail
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2019, 07:08:22 AM »
Did I say big-wing, small tail - NOW WITH SMALL BOARD.

Giving it a try again on the West Coast.

M200 with the GL Narrow tail.  Yesterday the surf was small.  Maybe a random 4.5 foot take off but then faded 2 to 3 feet (barely).

The M200 was certainly SLOWER than the GL210 but this may not always be bad if the surf is SLOW.  On the East Coast of the US when the period of the waves was 6 to 8 seconds this big wing worked great.  In California the period is almost NEVER that short.  We have too much fetch.  Wings COULD be best suited to their primary use spot.  I may be stating the obvious here.

PS: People also say "I can't turn that big wing."  We will see.  Testing again today.

PonoBill

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Re: Next Level Foiling with Small Tail
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2019, 07:28:10 AM »
Moving the front foot back is a big deal with a smaller tail. I went from the Axis 500 tail and 1020 wing with the long fuselage to the 440 with the standard fuse and I couldn't get it up off the water. I moved my foot back a few inches and the board got a little lighter but still wouldn't come up, even with some pretty high speed and lunatic pumping. Finally, I took my front strap off and moved my foot WAY back, almost standing on my carry handle and up it came, smooth as glass, I thought I'd need to slide my foot forward, but nope, it trimmed just fine an easy five to six inches back from my usual position. I need to get some NSI stick on mounts to add a strap, though I'm doing reasonably well strapless.
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Beasho

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Re: Next Level Foiling with Small Tail
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2019, 12:12:14 PM »
Finally, I took my front strap off and moved my foot WAY back, almost standing on my carry handle and up it came, smooth as glass, I thought I'd need to slide my foot forward, but nope, it trimmed just fine an easy five to six inches back from my usual position.

EXACTLY! I called Sam Pae last year asking about front foot placement with the smaller tail.  He sent me this picture.  He mounted the back of his strap INTO his handle position. 

Similarly see my front foot in the TOP photo.  If I slide my foot all the way back, in the long strap, my heel is also over the handle position on my board. 

Small tails create LESS DOWN FORCE.  If you do the math, front foot back ~ 8" moves CG back 4" X your weight you can figure out how much drag you just eliminated.   Comes out to ~ 15% less drag.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2019, 12:14:36 PM by Beasho »

supfoo

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Re: Next Level Foiling with Small Tail
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2019, 01:22:29 PM »
Couldn't all this be avoided by simply using the pedestal tail and putting it in the neutral position? Then no need to move foot placement plus eliminate drag?

clay

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Re: Next Level Foiling with Small Tail
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2019, 04:29:44 PM »
I'm glad the market leader has rolled out interchangeable wings.  Being able to dial in a foil to meet specific conditions and or rider preferences is awesome.

And I'm hoping this will have more folks wondering if their board can match the adjustability of their foil or even multiple brands of foils.

I've been polling foilers on how their boards are holding up, and most report track boxes are failing.  Tuttle may be stronger but then we would need to have a different board for each foil or foil combination with the tuttle box moved accordingly.

Infinite strap/hook inserts might help but then the board might be out of balance.

This is a long winded way of saying I need a board that is adjustable top and bottom and durable enough to survive the stresses of foiling.   With more people in the same boat I'm thinking more folks will be conjuring up a solution.
Aloha, I welcome and appreciate all responses of positivity and good feeling.

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PonoBill

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Re: Next Level Foiling with Small Tail
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2019, 05:55:54 PM »
Couldn't all this be avoided by simply using the pedestal tail and putting it in the neutral position? Then no need to move foot placement plus eliminate drag?

Somewhat true, but the wing is still a foil. Even trimmed neutral it generates lift. Changing the board angle has a bigger effect than the shim. Smaller wings have less lift throughout the range of board angles. I fiddled with changing the angle of the Axis stabilizer, and it had an effect but not as much as going to a smaller wing.
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soepkip

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Re: Next Level Foiling with Small Tail
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2019, 01:17:15 AM »
I have a Jimmy Lewis Flying Fish 5'11 and Axis S1020/S920/S820
The board has tuttle and tracks , I only use the tracks , if my front foil is a bit too small I move the foil forward , if it is too big I move it back.
The tracks are fine and I run into sandbanks all the time.

I use a front footstrap , no back strap.
I cannot move my front strap back because my center of gravity has to has to be above the center of flotation of the board, otherwise the board will not be flat on the water when I peddle for a wave.
I have the S1000 on order , I wonder what will happen with foot position....

One of the most important things for me is catching small slow waves because that's what we get most of the time...
I wonder if a small tail(I have the 400 and the 440 rears)would help to catch small waves or Is a bigger tail better for that?

And I have the Standard fuselage, 76.5cm long would it help to get the Ultra Short fuselage ,62.5cm long ?



PonoBill

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Re: Next Level Foiling with Small Tail
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2019, 05:12:01 AM »
Moving your foil forward is the same as moving your foot back, except you retain the ability to paddle with your foot in the front strap. My boards are so big I don't need to think about that much, my goto board right now is 6'11"X30".

The Jimmy Lewis boards are one of the few that you can use with tracks and hit something. He makes a crazy strong board, like a windsurfer. Sticking tracks in a layer of fiberglass ten thousandths thick over EPS you can crumble in your fingers is a bit optimistic. It takes a heck of a lot of reinforcement to make that work, and it's best if the reinforcement is connected to the deck, as Tuttles are. An unreinforced Tuttle is only marginally better than tracks--it's using the beam strength of the board, but if the center of the beam is just fluff then the value is limited.
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Admin

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Re: Next Level Foiling with Small Tail
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2019, 05:36:57 AM »
One of the most important things for me is catching small slow waves because that's what we get most of the time...
I wonder if a small tail(I have the 400 and the 440 rears)would help to catch small waves or Is a bigger tail better for that?

On the 1020 foil (for wing surfing) there is a huge difference in low speed flying with the bigger tail.  I have the 500 and 440 tails and the 500 gets flying in significantly lighter wind and at noticeably lower board speed.  It cruises a little slower when you are flying but it is a pretty subtle difference.  With the 500 wing your dancefloor gets pretty huge.  The 500 rear feels too big for the 1000 foil.  The 440 tail seems perfectly balanced with that one.  That setup takes more board speed and it has a narrower sweet spot for your feet but once it is flying it stays up really well.  It is also noticeably faster.  I only have the Standard Fuselages so far.  I noticed a big reduction in drag when I switched from the M200/Iwa tail to the 1020/500 tail.  There is about as much reduction again from the 1020/500 to the 1000/440.  These differences are super noticeable when you are slogging around in sub-foiling speeds with a wing.  Kind of like dragging weeds and then not dragging weeds.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2019, 05:49:15 AM by Admin »

Beasho

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Re: Next Level Foiling with Small Tail
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2019, 06:56:50 AM »
These observations are probably most reliable coming from the 'flyers' like Admin in the Gorge.  A good day for me in the Ocean would be 9 minutes of flight time.  They might get that within 15 minutes or arriving at the beach.

I used to get mad at the kiters, when I started foiling, because they have been doing this stuff for a 10 to 15 years.  Why didn't they figure it out?

Alex Aguerra explains that it was ALL ABOUT GOING SLOW. 

The interesting thing here is THE LONG FRONT STRAP.

I never had tracks, I DO NOT TRUST THEM.  So my mast has always been fixed by the TUTTLE.  I figured out where my feet needed to go and then put on foot straps.  I too had the same problem taking off with my FOOT in the front strap.  Depending on how the board floats you can either take off with both feet in the straps, or with a longer board it would just wheelie up, no hope.  The technique just had to change.  Front foot in paddle, paddle, then quick back foot in on takeoff.

However WHEN YOU START GETTING INTO BIGGER WAVES THE NEED TO MOVE YOUR FRONT FOOT BECOMES MORE NECESSARY. 

The takeoff is going to be fast on a big wave (big I will say is 6ft face+).  Even if you catch the shoulder it will be faster than the small waves.  When you hit those nasty takeoff speeds (~18 to 22 mph) its necessary to go FULL FRONT FOOT pressure to keep the nose down.  After the drop you return to more normal cruising speeds ~ 12 to 15 mph.  At these speeds you want an efficient craft that can navigate the troughs, turn and let you pump around.  You crab walk your front foot back 5".   This is where the small tail with long front strap is helpful. 

1) Not as much DOWNFORCE keeping you in the water on the steeper drops 
2) Lower drag allowing for faster more efficient cruising

Article here:
https://www.supboardermag.com/2019/09/20/go-foil-with-alex-aguera-past-present-future/
« Last Edit: October 13, 2019, 07:15:31 AM by Beasho »