Author Topic: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc  (Read 7721 times)

Tom

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Ok, so this was an investigation into the 2016 presidential election and to see if there was any collusion between Trump and Russia to sway the election? Right? To check out the election and to see if Trump paid Russia to influence/rig/whatever the election?
Isn't that the bottom line of the whole thing?

wrong. the investigation was three fold:
1) Did the Russians hack the 2016 election and to what extent? Yes they did and they did it to upset the US democratic process, to create turmoil in the US, and they preferred Trump over Hillary.
2) Did Trump or anyone else collude with the Russians? not really, they would have done it with or without Trump's help.
3) Were there any other crimes committed that were discovered while investigating the Russian investigation? Yes, there were many. Several indictments and convictions have come out already and there are some crimes that were uncovered that were outside the scope of the investigation that were referred to their respective jurisdiction.

One unanswered question is concerning obstruction. This is a two part question:
A) Did Trump try to obstruct justice? Yes
B) Since the President has 'unlimited' power to pardon, can the President be indited for obstruction of justice? Barr says no (which is why he was hired as attorney general). Congress and Muller say that the Constitution says it is with in Congress's power to determine.

Admin

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Ok, so this was an investigation into the 2016 presidential election and to see if there was any collusion between Trump and Russia to sway the election? Right? To check out the election and to see if Trump paid Russia to influence/rig/whatever the election?
Isn't that the bottom line of the whole thing?

Hi Luca,

No.  Here is the beginning of Mueller's Mandate from Rosenstein (who was directly appointed by Trump):

"By virtue of the authority vested in me as Acting Attorney General, including 28 U.S.C.
§§ 509, 510, and 515, in order to discharge my responsibility to provide supervision and
management of the Department of Justice, and to ensure a full and thorough investigation of the
Russian governments efforts to interfere in the 2016 presidential election
".

As we now know the Mueller report confirmed Russian interference as the intelligence community had maintained all along.  Our intelligence community has also detailed that this interference is a grave threat to our democratic process an that it is now much further advanced as no steps have been taken by this administration to correct these issues. 

That should be important to everyone who values our democracy. It also raises some questions.  Do you trust our intelligence community?  Many of us do.  Do you value our system of checks and balances including congressional oversight?  If so, investigations are a part of that.  Now we have had one.  It was initiated by a Trump appointee.  Why would congress not have a legitimate interest in that?  That is their job. 

One of the reasons that Trump fighting so hard to bury this is that in his perception this indicates that his election results are tainted by this report's determination of outside interference.  Ratings. 








« Last Edit: May 07, 2019, 03:42:22 PM by Admin »

RideTheGlide

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One of the biggest concerns now is not allowing a precedent of vast executive over reach. If congress is going beyond the legal bounds of their power, the judiciary may intercede. If it's the opinion of the majority that congress is using their powers within the law but frivolously, then the majority can vote them out. But for the President to decide that he shouldn't be subjected to it and try to shut it down through non compliance is executive over reach. Allow that is a substantial threat to the republic. Defending the constitution, which Trump swore an oath to do, means making sure that the checks and balances are followed.  I completely understand Pelosi's concern about Trump rejecting the results of a close election if he is allowed to ignore the law without consequence.
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lucabrasi

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Thanks Tom, Thanks Admin.

I don't think I was really that far off....
"By virtue of the authority vested in me as Acting Attorney General, including 28 U.S.C.
§§ 509, 510, and 515, in order to discharge my responsibility to provide supervision and
management of the Department of Justice, and to ensure a full and thorough investigation of the
Russian governments efforts to interfere in the 2016 presidential election
".
…...

wrong. the investigation was three fold:
1) Did the Russians hack the 2016 election and to what extent? Yes they did and they did it to upset the US democratic process, to create turmoil in the US, and they preferred Trump over Hillary.
2) Did Trump or anyone else collude with the Russians? not really, they would have done it with or without Trump's help.
3) Were there any other crimes committed that were discovered while investigating the Russian investigation? Yes, there were many. Several indictments and convictions have come out already and there are some crimes that were uncovered that were outside the scope of the investigation that were referred to their respective jurisdiction.

One unanswered question is concerning obstruction. This is a two part question:
A) Did Trump try to obstruct justice? Yes
B) Since the President has 'unlimited' power to pardon, can the President be indited for obstruction of justice? Barr says no (which is why he was hired as attorney general). Congress and Muller say that the Constitution says it is with in Congress's power to determine.


As we now know the Mueller report confirmed Russian interference as the intelligence community had maintained all along.  Our intelligence community has also detailed that this interference is a grave threat to our democratic process an that it is now much further advanced as no steps have been taken by this administration to correct these issues. 

That should be important to everyone who values our democracy. It also raises some questions.  Do you trust our intelligence community?  Many of us do.  Do you value our system of checks and balances including congressional oversight?  If so, investigations are a part of that.  Now we have had one.  It was initiated by a Trump appointee.  Why would congress not have a legitimate interest in that?  That is their job. 

One of the reasons that Trump fighting so hard to bury this is that in his perception this indicates that his election results are tainted by this report's determination of outside interference.  Ratings
Ok.....obstruction of justice is where we are at now. I think I knew that.....maybe not.

Of course the president should not be above that..being able to be charged with obstruction of justice.

So, we are left with a redacted report to try and draw our conclusions from.
I don't think we want the redacted stuff out for all to see. I am not even sure we want all of congress to see it but we need more than a "select" few to see it.
Why did Mueller punt? I would guess the report is one or both of two things. There really isn't anything for him to do anything with or some real stuff in there that would be just as detrimental to the other side or the entire system as a whole.
Hell, I don't know.
Does the supreme court look at it? Who do we trust to look at it?
Too many conservatives there....too many liberals here.....

Do we really trust the way it seems congress seems to have become? Straight party line where no one can seem to make decisions of their own mind...tow the party line regardless.
Yeah, their constituents voted them in, they're from their party but something is just not right it seems.
Big can of worms here.

As we now know the Mueller report confirmed Russian interference as the intelligence community had maintained all along.  Our intelligence community has also detailed that this interference is a grave threat to our democratic process an that it is now much further advanced as no steps have been taken by this administration to correct these issues. 

Zuckerberg went before congress and said he would be more careful of the news facebook allows to be spread.
Isn't that enough?
Another big can of worms.
It is a big threat, and even trickier to deal with for many reasons.
The interference came from "news"?
Are we dealing with a freedom of the press/freedom of speach issue at the core? 
Now what?
Is this really a presidential admistration issue or a congressional issue? I see it more of a congressional issue and both of them should instill confidence to us in our elections although I guess I don't know who directs the intellgence community to do such things......congress or the president? Is that going to be made public.......what the intelligence community is doing?
Simply wonderful all the same. 

SanoSlatchSup

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Zuckerberg went before congress and said he would be more careful of the news facebook allows to be spread.
Isn't that enough?
Another big can of worms.
It is a big threat, and even trickier to deal with for many reasons.
The interference came from "news"?
Are we dealing with a freedom of the press/freedom of speach issue at the core? 
Now what?
Is this really a presidential admistration issue or a congressional issue? I see it more of a congressional issue and both of them should instill confidence to us in our elections although I guess I don't know who directs the intellgence community to do such things......congress or the president? Is that going to be made public.......what the intelligence community is doing?
Simply wonderful all the same.
I'm going with "another big can of worms" when an individual (Zuckerberg) or their minions decide on what's "news" and what isn't...or maybe even worse, having to determine what's real, and what's not....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=cQ54GDm1eL0

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Tom

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Ok.....obstruction of justice is where we are at now. I think I knew that.....maybe not.

Of course the president should not be above that..being able to be charged with obstruction of justice.
Agreed, he should not be above the law, but his almost unrestricted power to pardon allows him to pardon anyone for any crime after they have been convicted, and to stop anyone for any crime from being prosecuted. So he could apply that to himself if accused. The supreme court can't override his power.

The only way to convict him of obstruction or any crime, is to wait until he is no longer President, then its a slam dunk.

But, impeachment is not a criminal court issue. Its a matter for Congressional branch, not the Judicial Branch. Three branches of government which have equal power so there is a balance of power.

Quote
So, we are left with a redacted report to try and draw our conclusions from.
I don't think we want the redacted stuff out for all to see. I am not even sure we want all of congress to see it but we need more than a "select" few to see it.

The Dems aren't asking for all to see it, just let some of the Representatives and Seniors from both parties see it.

Rider

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WoW.... this is getting really tedious. Think about it? What do the Dems have to run on?................ The Green New Deal or Biden?...Trump Russia Trump Russia. Really? Pete? Burnie? Liz? Corey? Face it....You got nothing but the hoax. Fun when it all comes tumbling down. I might cover some bets for 2020. Charity of course.

RideTheGlide

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WoW.... this is getting really tedious. Think about it? What do the Dems have to run on?................ The Green New Deal or Biden?...Trump Russia Trump Russia. Really? Pete? Burnie? Liz? Corey? Face it....You got nothing but the hoax. Fun when it all comes tumbling down. I might cover some bets for 2020. Charity of course.
You are talking about the one element not even in the title, though it has come up - Russia. You even said it twice for emphasis. Obstruction - pretty much a course plotted for congress if they want to try to prosecute it in Mueller's report. The missing millions from the campaign; that will likely not be Trump personally, but it should not be ignored. Taxes - NY may be the first entity to formally do anything about that; we only have some vague testimony about federal evasion. Business - aligning politics with your personal business interests is a crime. Over riding security clearance failures to appoint people to positions they should be disqualified from is something that should be subject to congressional oversight. Executive over reach by choosing to ignore the rights and powers of congress is breaking his oath to protect the constitution; he violates it if he sees fit.

IMO, the last one is the scariest. Even if you agree with him and think that it's a waste of time and resources to investigate, letting him rule by proclamation is unconstitutional and a step down the road toward a strongman dictatorship.
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Rider

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What a bunch of bs. You don’t even believe your own bull shit.

pdxmike

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What a bunch of bs. You don’t even believe your own bull shit.
Rider--you're out of line--again.  If this is all too tedious for you (your word), or too difficult to keep up with or understand, step away.

Remember your last comment to me?    "It must suck to be as dumb as you."  There's no place for that here.  Getting another of your comments deleted should have been a clue for you.  Following up your hostile digs at people with an inane comment ending in "cheers" doesn't excuse you.

Everyone else is managing to have reasonable conversations here.  Comment like an adult or keep quiet.


Area 10

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Well said, pdxmike.

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Admin

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The 10 years of Trump tax information that was released last night by the NYT explains why Trump is refusing to release his returns. 

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/05/07/us/politics/donald-trump-taxes.html


eastbound

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without daddy's dough, trump would be in the gutter, where he belongs

only good deal he ever "did" was when his daddy teed up the hyatt deal in NYC--all the rest are fails--business-wise? deal-wise? trump is a proven moron..........

got a problem with that? educate me---and i mean deals, not trump's invented crap he's done for tv---he's made some money there, basking in the fraud that he's a solid businessman

show me just one blockbuster win in any sort of real business---help!!! daddy!!!! 

but without daddy's tax fraud money handouts???  fuggedafrikkinboutit

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RideTheGlide

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Just to set the record straight, I absolutely do believe what I posted prior to Rider's comment questioning my conclusion as well as my confidence in it. I think Trump tested the waters on Sunday, retweeting and then restating the idea that some of his term was "stollen". If he is able to shutdown the investigations and is subsequently defeated in 2020, I would not be the least bit surprised if he tries to avoid stepping down by questioning the results with little or no evidence.
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