Author Topic: Investigations into Trump - obstruction, campaign, taxes, business, etc  (Read 9316 times)

RideTheGlide

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It was 2 posts down from the one you replied to. No, it was more recent.
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Area 10

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Iím rapidly coming to the conclusion that the human race is totally doomed. Or maybe itís just democracy that is doomed, killed by social media, misinformation, and the worst instincts of human nature.

magentawave

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Keep reading, I did. I quoted an article with a couple of examples.

I don't feel like going through this entire thread (cuz I'm going surfing now!), but are you referring to the 50's and 60's when income taxes were as high as 90%?

I scanned the article and the notion that government can improve the economy by stealing and squandering the wealth of the people is absurd. The welfare state, as just one example, squanders close to 3/4 of every dollar it steals from us to pay for administrative costs, buildings, etc., etc. Humans NEED the carrot at the end of the stick, so what do you think will happen when taxes are so punitively high that the incentive to produce disappears? And what right does the state have to take what is not theirs? If you want to end deficit spending and reduce the debt then the ONLY sane and moral approach is to radically shrink the size of government - NOT grow it by feeding the beast. C'mon man, this is common sense.

I see you commenting on how Trump "must be committing crimes" in spite of the fact that they just concluded a two year $30,000,000.00 investigation that apparently said he did not. Does it matter to you that the Clinton people paid (COLLUDED with) the Russians to create the phony Steele Dossier that was used to ILLEGALLY obtain the FISA warrants so they could spy on Trump? Does it matter that this has been a coup that makes Watergate seem like kindergarten in comparison for the purposes of bringing down a duly elected president? EVEN IF YOU HATE TRUMP - THIS SH*T SHOULD MATTER TO YOU. Frankly I'm shocked that you aren't aware of this. Anyway, fasten your seat belts because there should be lots of news regarding the illegally obtained FISA warrants this week. Lets hope these bastards are tried for treason.
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Rider

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Hi Magenta..... They KNOW....but they just donít care. Pass the dub bro..... 8)

Area 10

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A large part of the problem we face is that people from different political parties increasingly disagree about the basic facts that underpin political viewpoints. Here is a good example:

https://news.sky.com/story/sky-views-in-the-us-climate-change-is-a-value-not-a-fact-11719459

It is hard to find a compromise position when the parties involved disagree about the basic facts, not just the interpretation of them.

Selective reporting is also to blame. We all know that it is possible to convince someone else to believe a particular position by leaving out information that would convince them otherwise, or at least would convince them to take a more moderate viewpoint. This selective reporting is happening widely in the media now. A good example is the Steele dossier furore:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/25/us/politics/steele-dossier-trump-expained.html

Part of the issue in these kinds of discussions on this forum is that the Trump supporters seem surprisingly unwilling to share the source of their beliefs. Statements are made as simple fact. when there is often a rather complex backstory that might include disconfirming evidence. So I would appeal to the Trump supporters here to please follow convention, and cite the sources of the facts that you assert. Just simple weblinks like I have done here would be great. Because I think we are reading and hearing very different information, and I want to read and hear what you are. This would be in your best interests because maybe I might encounter something that might change my viewpoint. Thanks.

Area 10

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Hereís an interesting article that perhaps explains why in Europe, welfare is not regarded as a dirty word, but a kindness to others that repays itself economically, whereas a different view exists in the US. This article links this difference in attitude to the higher rates of ďdeaths of despairĒ in the US. A prominent view in some European circles is that Trump is a political consequence of this despair.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/mar/28/deaths-of-despair-us-jobs-drugs-alcohol-suicide

yugi

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Iím rapidly coming to the conclusion that the human race is totally doomed. Or maybe itís just democracy that is doomed, killed by social media, misinformation, and the worst instincts of human nature.

It is stunning how putting information at everyone's fingertips actually just made spreading misinformation so much easier. Despite individual human's intelligence, as a pack humans still act just like sheep.

yugi

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...
Part of the issue in these kinds of discussions on this forum is that the Trump supporters seem surprisingly unwilling to share the source of their beliefs. Statements are made as simple fact. when there is often a rather complex backstory that might include disconfirming evidence. So I would appeal to the Trump supporters here to please follow convention, and cite the sources of the facts that you assert. Just simple weblinks like I have done here would be great. Because I think we are reading and hearing very different information, and I want to read and hear what you are. This would be in your best interests because maybe I might encounter something that might change my viewpoint. Thanks.


RideTheGlide

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I like the news source chart. Most of my reading is from the green box, but I tend to quote more from the left side as the conclusion I draw is usually explained with a better argument than I can make. Interesting placement for CNN, but I agree with it even though I like CNN. They do tend to run a lot of opinionated hard news; giving both sides of the story accurately but with a more negative tone on things Trump/conservative.
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If you want to end deficit spending and reduce the debt then the ONLY sane and moral approach is to radically shrink the size of government

Under Trump we have the highest budget deficit ever for a non recession year. 

In terms of Steele etc, this has been heavily considered. Trump asked for this to be investigated by the FBI.

« Last Edit: May 14, 2019, 07:35:58 AM by Admin »

Weasels wake

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but them jets are fueled and flying---you got one WW?
I got an e-bike.
It takes a quiver to do that.

lucabrasi

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Iím rapidly coming to the conclusion that the human race is totally doomed. Or maybe itís just democracy that is doomed, killed by social media, misinformation, and the worst instincts of human nature.
I'm with you on this. Sometimes I wonder if I give too much credit to the human race anymore rather than not enough.
It is stunning how putting information at everyone's fingertips actually just made spreading misinformation so much easier. Despite individual human's intelligence, as a pack humans still act just like sheep.
it does and we sure seem to but not just sheep. Hyenas as well.

Saw a quote once that went something like "the sound of society collapsing is holding twitter up to your ear".

The more I see of social media and despite all it's benefits and good things the bad just seems to rise up and I become convinced it's the doom of us for many reasons. Maybe I'm just the old man whose pissed off at the radio being there and people not going out to the theater or playhouse for the evening. 

Hereís an interesting article that perhaps explains why in Europe, welfare is not regarded as a dirty word, but a kindness to others that repays itself economically, whereas a different view exists in the US. This article links this difference in attitude to the higher rates of ďdeaths of despairĒ in the US. A prominent view in some European circles is that Trump is a political consequence of this despair.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/mar/28/deaths-of-despair-us-jobs-drugs-alcohol-suicide

Scanned the article...Ö.just because...
I don't think anyone has an issue helping someone out who needs it. The guy who lost his job or got sick, the mom working her ass off but still barely treading water, the person who just came back from serving, etc. Lots of examples to give. With that said the issue is not that and the last line in the article you linked kind of hits on it....a helping hand and a hand out are not the same thing and there are far too many hand outs going on....multiple generations......kids being raised that this is how you live.....sit at home and collect cuz just plain lazy...
Trying to make sure it goes to the right places and isn't abused is the issue....but we all know that but I am not so sure there is a way to make that work the way it should.

The chart...(posted earlier elsewhere)...Reuters and AP at the top.....interesting. I guess that's what they are supposed to be but I seem to have seen something from one of them in the last year that made me shake my head wondering what the hell happened. Absurd the networks are right there as well. The tone of the evening news is just nothing but a drama filled half hour that also seems to resonate of social media. I can't watch without shaking my head. Some truth (for lack of a better word) in the chart but like all the news sources it categorizes it needs to be taken with a grain of salt or at the least...I don't know...an open mind? (ha!)

Steele stuff. Last week I popped into google "who has seen the unredacted mueller report" or something like that. This FISA and Steele popped up in the results or in whatever it brought me to off and on.  Most of the stories were from April I think. It was all new stuff to me for the most part. Wondered why I hadn't heard more of it. Still don't know what to think about it along with the whole Mueller report stuff and where we at with it now. Didn't take alot of time reading about it.....didn't even know what to believe of the actual results I ran across for what I was searching for.

It's a mine field out there trying to get real info....and it ain't getting any better either.

Weasel and Rider: how many times have you searched for these terms on the internet? ........
...oooffff......and you're off and running again......
« Last Edit: May 14, 2019, 10:49:55 AM by lucabrasi »

PonoBill

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The reason AP and Reuters pops to the top of the credibility chart is simply that they are feed sources for news organizations--not for consumption by the public: What, When, Where, Why and how. As such they have no discernible bias, and no opportunity to exercise whatever they have. Any AP or Reuters stringer who displays any is looking for work pretty quickly. Of course, there is intrinsic and extrinsic bias in everything. Some things don't get reported that should be. But all the fluff, bullshit, and provincialism get added by the news organizations.

Luca--a few days reading comments on Youtube will have you reaching for the reset button on humanity. People aren't just stupid, they're willfully ignorant and mean. There's a certain natural isolation that keeps capable and reasonably intelligent people isolated from the stunning stupidity of most people: You never have any real interaction or a conversation with someone who is really stupid unless they are related to you, and at least half of humanity is as dumb as a bag of hammers. It's the critical piece that democracy forgets about, and the reason why functioning liberal "democracies" are all at least republics. A real democracy would last a year at most.
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TallDude

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This is my favorite world news. HHK world news. I don't hear any bias in their reporting. Though I'm sure there is a little. They let Trump blab and then quote something from the New York Times. Then they interview the Iranian leaders, which helps me some what understand what possibly the real issue is. It's my preferred perspective.... the real issue. Interestingly enough, I don't see it on that graphic.

https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/20190515_06/

I started watching it with my mother-in-law in Hawaii. She got me hooked. They really cover the world very well. I'm personally more concerned about the world than a bunch narrow minded right and left vigilantes. Concerned, look in the mirror and see what you have. Compare that to the world. Trump or Biden? That's some pretty shitting options and Bernie is just handing out free toilet paper to college students. 


« Last Edit: May 14, 2019, 04:30:52 PM by TallDude »

eastbound

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careful, pb, youll be labelled elitist--tho i dont think you care what you get labelled

it pains me to admit, but i have a hard time differing with you---now, more than ever, people need to be smart about what media/information they consume, and they need to care about truth

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