Author Topic: Naish 2020 Inflatable SUPs  (Read 9034 times)

burchas

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Re: Naish 2020 Inflatable SUPs
« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2019, 07:41:00 AM »
Too many confounding variables? Youíve got to be joking. I could discover this for them quite easily.

Shouldn't be too hard. A combination of methods most likely to prove effective As Red demonstrated.
in progress...

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Re: Naish 2020 Inflatable SUPs
« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2019, 08:50:19 AM »
Too many confounding variables? Youíve got to be joking. I could discover this for them quite easily.

Shouldn't be too hard. A combination of methods most likely to prove effective As Red demonstrated.
For sure. I donít think theyíve even started to make much of an effort tbh. It seems mostly that they are just adjuncts to marketing rather than genuine attempts to find an engineering solution. Price is of course an issue. But if people will pay 3-4000 GBP for hard boards then theyíll pay half that for an iSUP as long as what they are getting is very obviously better than a pool toy.

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Re: Naish 2020 Inflatable SUPs
« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2019, 09:55:00 AM »
Has anyone done the kind of test that the video review described (measuring the deflection of the bottom of the board at a midpoint when stands 1.5m apart are placed centrally over the midpoint, and a static weight of 75kg is applied (I think)) both before and after the Starboard ďcordĒ (on eg. 2018 the Airline All Star) is used?

ukgm

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Re: Naish 2020 Inflatable SUPs
« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2019, 10:33:06 AM »
Too many confounding variables? Youíve got to be joking. I could discover this for them quite easily.

You'd need to consider stiffness through multiple axis and the dynamic elastic response is dependant on the mass of the paddler. I'd say thats quite hard to simulate.

You've piqued my interest though, how would you do it ?

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Re: Naish 2020 Inflatable SUPs
« Reply #19 on: March 20, 2019, 10:38:26 AM »
Has anyone done the kind of test that the video review described (measuring the deflection of the bottom of the board at a midpoint when stands 1.5m apart are placed centrally over the midpoint, and a static weight of 75kg is applied (I think)) both before and after the Starboard ďcordĒ (on eg. 2018 the Airline All Star) is used?

I did this for the 14x27 Elite (with and without FFC) and will do it for the 2019 14x28 All Star Airline. All Star review will be out as the season warms up with this info on both boards. I'd have to look at my notes but I believe I did it 2m apart and I'm 90kg.
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Re: Naish 2020 Inflatable SUPs
« Reply #20 on: March 20, 2019, 11:30:38 AM »
Too many confounding variables? Youíve got to be joking. I could discover this for them quite easily.

You'd need to consider stiffness through multiple axis and the dynamic elastic response is dependant on the mass of the paddler. I'd say thats quite hard to simulate.

You've piqued my interest though, how would you do it ?
I wouldnít try to model the forces at work, Iíd just look at outcome (eg. speed) and measure some basics with sets of accelerometers fitted to both board and paddler, and possibly some physiological measurements too. Iím using similar methods at work to investigate the effects of exercise on the brain, so it would be fairly easy for me in comparison to that. But you probably donít need the fancy stuff- it could be done with a simple factorial parametric (a mixed model, repeated measures) design where a small set of boards are adapted in turn to be fitted with the chosen solution and then you measure performance (using a set of paddlers of variying abilities) over a set of courses. And then swap between boards. That would be enough to find out which solutions are the most promising, which is all that is needed right now. It would take quite a bit of time, but could be done in a week, with co-operation from some colleagues. The analysis would probably take another week.

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Re: Naish 2020 Inflatable SUPs
« Reply #21 on: March 20, 2019, 11:41:40 AM »
Has anyone done the kind of test that the video review described (measuring the deflection of the bottom of the board at a midpoint when stands 1.5m apart are placed centrally over the midpoint, and a static weight of 75kg is applied (I think)) both before and after the Starboard ďcordĒ (on eg. 2018 the Airline All Star) is used?

I did this for the 14x27 Elite (with and without FFC) and will do it for the 2019 14x28 All Star Airline. All Star review will be out as the season warms up with this info on both boards. I'd have to look at my notes but I believe I did it 2m apart and I'm 90kg.
Great - that would be very helpful, thanks,

ukgm

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Re: Naish 2020 Inflatable SUPs
« Reply #22 on: March 20, 2019, 01:41:45 PM »
Too many confounding variables? Youíve got to be joking. I could discover this for them quite easily.

You'd need to consider stiffness through multiple axis and the dynamic elastic response is dependant on the mass of the paddler. I'd say thats quite hard to simulate.

You've piqued my interest though, how would you do it ?
I wouldnít try to model the forces at work, Iíd just look at outcome (eg. speed) and measure some basics with sets of accelerometers fitted to both board and paddler, and possibly some physiological measurements too. Iím using similar methods at work to investigate the effects of exercise on the brain, so it would be fairly easy for me in comparison to that. But you probably donít need the fancy stuff- it could be done with a simple factorial parametric (a mixed model, repeated measures) design where a small set of boards are adapted in turn to be fitted with the chosen solution and then you measure performance (using a set of paddlers of variying abilities) over a set of courses. And then swap between boards. That would be enough to find out which solutions are the most promising, which is all that is needed right now. It would take quite a bit of time, but could be done in a week, with co-operation from some colleagues. The analysis would probably take another week.

Hold up a minute - I thought the point here was to measure comparable stiffness, not overall performance. With that in mind, you don't want accelerometers, you need strain gauges. However, they would be hard to affix to an inflatable board. With what you're proposing, not only does it not do that but when board X is proven to be better than board Y, you don't know why it is as you haven't measured any of the dynamic stresses/strains of the board to then isolate them from the other factors that govern performance.

robon

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Re: Naish 2020 Inflatable SUPs
« Reply #23 on: March 20, 2019, 02:56:25 PM »
Nerds.

burchas

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Re: Naish 2020 Inflatable SUPs
« Reply #24 on: March 20, 2019, 02:58:24 PM »
Are we again pulling out the cannon to kill a mosquito?

Boards like Red Elite 14x25 already proved to be on par with hardboards of similar dimension when it comes to flat water.
My own experience with the board VS top end boards even rendered the board superior in certain condition where volume
and weight are key factors.

Mid-section and nose stiffening brought us to this point. Standard deflection test seems sufficient at this point, I would add
one for the nose section just to be extravagant and check which stiffening method works best in that regard.

At that point you'll have a pretty good grasp what works best and we can move on the measure the effects of the wiki-rail
on performance.

in progress...

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Re: Naish 2020 Inflatable SUPs
« Reply #25 on: March 20, 2019, 03:08:30 PM »
ukgm - I think you have misunderstood my proposal. As I mentioned, I would use a a mixed model, with both within-subject and between-subject factors. I would take a few different engineering solutions to eg. three different race iSUPs (eg. battens, dyneema cord etc) and then apply each one to each board in turn, and then perhaps also combine them. All paddlers would use all boards in all combinations, with the orders of use balanced using a Latin Square type design; it would be a fully crossed parametric design. This is a very powerful (and standard) way to approach the issue. It would be quite a lot of work, but would give a good answer as to which stiffening solution works (if any do), and indeed, which combinations might be best.

I would use the accelerometers to measure the amount of bounce and flex in the boards under use, and compare this with the stiffening solutions fitted or not fitted. I can statistically control for differences in paddler and conditions.

If any of these solutions provide so little improvement that it is impossible to detect like this, then it would probably be fair to say that they are not worth using (unless there were other benefits such as stability or some other performance metric not being measured but which could be examined informally from paddler reports).

Iím not aiming to find out which board is fastest. Iím aiming to find out which is the best way of stiffening an iSUP so as to improve its performance.

Burchas - if you are a scientist by trade, you canít help wanting to have lots of statistics to back up what you believe in. Itís an occupational hazard, bound to infuriate all those around you :)

burchas

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Re: Naish 2020 Inflatable SUPs
« Reply #26 on: March 20, 2019, 04:00:12 PM »
Burchas - if you are a scientist by trade, you canít help wanting to have lots of statistics to back up what you believe in. Itís an occupational hazard, bound to infuriate all those around you :)

I have nothing against geeking out :) As interesting as your theories are you have no capability of testing what you're proposing. That said, You do have a way to test
deflection on both proposed areas and you do have a way to test the effects of wiki-rail on performance, so merely trying to channel it to a productive space where
your deep correspondence will result an actual facts rather than hot air :D Assuming of course you do intend to test it, otherwise i'm over & out.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2019, 04:04:28 PM by burchas »
in progress...

ukgm

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Re: Naish 2020 Inflatable SUPs
« Reply #27 on: March 20, 2019, 04:29:07 PM »
1) It would be quite a lot of work, but would give a good answer as to which stiffening solution works (if any do), and indeed, which combinations might be best.

2) I would use the accelerometers to measure the amount of bounce and flex in the boards under use, and compare this with the stiffening solutions fitted or not fitted. I can statistically control for differences in paddler and conditions.


3) Iím not aiming to find out which board is fastest. Iím aiming to find out which is the best way of stiffening an iSUP so as to improve its performance.

1) ...so you are comparing the stiffening designs of existing products. I get that. However, whilst this may account for the best overarching stiffening solution on that day, it doesn't actually measure stiffness. To be honest, you don't need to I guess. In the case of developing a standardised test (as was the original point), your solution won't address that. You're going down a pragmatic path I would personally agree with though.

2) Measuring bounce and flex isn't the same as measuring stiffness. Your method doesn't allow the isolation or easy identification of any confounding issues surrounding any effects of torsion and hysteresis either. You'd also need accelerometers in several locations of the board and you'll get major noise in multiple axis over what is likely to be over relatively small displacements. I'm not convinced these could merely be averaged out as the range of boundary conditions is quite large. Realistically, you should be using strain gauges. Having them in just once place won't tell you much about the boards stiffness. Put simply, it isn't as simple a problem as you're saying it is. You're one hell of a scientist.... but you're not an engineer and your unintentionally glossing over fundamental issues an engineer would be aware of ;D

3) Your proposal doesn't do that. The reason for this is that you could take your best method of stiffening from your tests but if its applied to a different boards design on a different kind of day (with a different board profile), you may not get the same result. Neither will you if the waterstate is different as the boards reaction to it (particularly as you'll be changing the boundary conditions as the loads upon it will change - in terms of the paddlers behaviour and the board - as the points of contact will dynamically change - particularly if it has a larger rocker line).

Will you find out the best board on any given day though, absolutely. You just can't translate the results from one day to the next but then, none of us really know how close the current boards are in terms of their dynamic mechanical properties

« Last Edit: March 20, 2019, 04:45:12 PM by ukgm »

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Re: Naish 2020 Inflatable SUPs
« Reply #28 on: March 20, 2019, 04:38:41 PM »
Burchas - actually, I do have the capability to do this. It wouldnít be too hard, and Iíve done similar tests for my own entertainment in the past. But time is the enemy, right now. Iím also not sure that the solutions weíve been offered so far are the most effective ones. It might be more rewarding to develop a new solution. My UL iSUP could be so much better if I could reduce the flex. I might also fit one of the ULI wiki rails to it, and measure before-and-after. By coincidence, I approached ULI about this a couple of months ago, to check shipping costs.

ukgm

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Re: Naish 2020 Inflatable SUPs
« Reply #29 on: March 20, 2019, 04:42:15 PM »
Iím also not sure that the solutions weíve been offered so far are the most effective ones.

I definitely agree with this. Manufacturing techniques are in their early days with respect to this.

If you have done testing like this in the past as you mention, please share it or the results - I'm genuinely interested.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2019, 04:44:08 PM by ukgm »

 


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