Poll

This is a uniquely informed and diverse group to survey on any question, most definitely this one.  At this point, for whom would you cast your ballot?

Trump
19 (46.3%)
Biden
9 (22%)
Sanders
8 (19.5%)
Booker
4 (9.8%)
Klobuchar
1 (2.4%)

Total Members Voted: 41

Voting closed: March 21, 2019, 04:39:47 PM

Author Topic: 2020 Vision  (Read 123985 times)

jpeter

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #705 on: April 29, 2019, 05:53:47 AM »
The USA is a republic of states.  Each state has representation in congress base on both population and the fact that it is a state.  The votes for president match this representation. 

I'm not saying this can not be changed.  My state of CT,  a small state,  passed a law to make my vote not count at all unless it matches the popular vote.  So our democrat party wanted us to give up our states rights.  Makes no sense for a small state to do.

I do think that the Electoral collage is a part of the definition of what makes us a republic. 

If you want Trump out of office,  then vote him out.  No need to change the rules if your side is so popular.  It is politically incorrect to support Trump.   So everyone in the D party thinks that he has no support.   

Notice that here, in the enlightened Standupzone,  TRUMP is at 46 percent after being in office for 2 years. 

JP

The electoral college has nothing to do with being a republic. You don't even have to have states. It just means that the people have representatives that pass the laws and govern. A democratic republic, with elected representatives, is a practical way to run a democracy, rather than have every proposed law voted on by everyone. The colonies did not all eagerly "gel" into a country; states rights were a way to still offer some independence and get everyone to agree on the establishment of a central government.

Proper vocabulary would have been "federal republic"

spirit4earth

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #706 on: April 29, 2019, 06:12:02 AM »
If there were no electoral college, your state wouldn't have made a decision that creates a situation where even if every voter in your state voted for one candidate, every one of your electoral votes could go to his or her opponent.  Instead of that fiasco, I'd rather have no electoral college, with my vote counting the same as everyone else's.


Not sure why you're talking about Trump, "your side", etc.

The "fiasco" in my state is exactly that,  no electoral college.  I would rather that my vote count toward my states share in the presidential decision.

As fas as Trump, your side, etc ..   All the discussion that I hear about electoral college being outdated or a bad thing seems to be coming from those who feel that Hillary Clintons popular vote win should have had her as president.
JP

Well yes, exactly.  The person who won the popular vote should have been elected.  This can work both ways, of course.  If a republican wins the popular vote, then so be it.  That person wins. 

RideTheGlide

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #707 on: April 29, 2019, 06:44:24 AM »
The USA is a republic of states.  Each state has representation in congress base on both population and the fact that it is a state.  The votes for president match this representation. 

I'm not saying this can not be changed.  My state of CT,  a small state,  passed a law to make my vote not count at all unless it matches the popular vote.  So our democrat party wanted us to give up our states rights.  Makes no sense for a small state to do.

I do think that the Electoral collage is a part of the definition of what makes us a republic. 

If you want Trump out of office,  then vote him out.  No need to change the rules if your side is so popular.  It is politically incorrect to support Trump.   So everyone in the D party thinks that he has no support.   

Notice that here, in the enlightened Standupzone,  TRUMP is at 46 percent after being in office for 2 years. 

JP

The electoral college has nothing to do with being a republic. You don't even have to have states. It just means that the people have representatives that pass the laws and govern. A democratic republic, with elected representatives, is a practical way to run a democracy, rather than have every proposed law voted on by everyone. The colonies did not all eagerly "gel" into a country; states rights were a way to still offer some independence and get everyone to agree on the establishment of a central government.

Proper vocabulary would have been "federal republic"
That verbiage does bring states' rights into the conversation but it muddies the debate rather than clarifying anything. It's about division of political power; what can be legislated at the state level and what can be legislated at the federal level. the electoral college is a federal law that can be changed at the federal level. A state government can choose what to do with the votes it is given, but we would not cease to be a republic, democratic republic or federal republic if that system were changed. The framers provided ways for the laws to change for a reason. You can respect history without getting stuck in the past.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2019, 07:31:24 AM by RideTheGlide »
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Bean

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #708 on: April 29, 2019, 09:03:56 AM »
But you have to understand what is already in place before you make meaningful changes...

eastbound

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #709 on: April 29, 2019, 09:21:07 AM »
help me out, bean---what is there to understand that about the electoral college that makes retention of it in current form sensible??

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Bean

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #710 on: April 29, 2019, 10:34:04 AM »
To understand why it was implemented by the framers of the constitution and whether the same or similar conditions exist today to warrant retaining it.

RideTheGlide

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #711 on: April 29, 2019, 10:46:25 AM »
But you have to understand what is already in place before you make meaningful changes...
AS your post came right after mine, is there something you think I don't understand? I answered a prior question about electoral college as a requirement of being a republic - it's not. the someone said I should have referenced a federal republic instead of democratic republic. I pointed out that still doesn't change the answer - the electoral college is not required to be a federal republic. It is something that was specified when this federal republic was created, but it is in no way required and changing it would not change the form of government to something different from a republic, democratic republic or federal republic (all of which describe the US).

Eliminating the electoral college just changes how the winner of the presidential election is determined so that all votes count and none count more than others. Either you want all votes counted and none counting more than others or you don't. The only reason to go down another rabbit hole is to confuse the issue.

You replied while I was replying...
To understand why it was implemented by the framers of the constitution and whether the same or similar conditions exist today to warrant retaining it.

That's a debate that can't really be settled - what the intent was at the time. But when they documented in great detail how to change things as situations warrant it, I think it is pretty clear what their intent was.
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jpeter

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #712 on: April 29, 2019, 10:52:58 AM »
The electoral college is not required for a federal republic to exist.  However it is how the founding fathers set up our government.   

Califoilia

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #713 on: April 29, 2019, 11:08:31 AM »
Yeah, how'd that work out this time?

Quote
The first reason that the founders created the Electoral College is hard to understand today. The founding fathers were afraid of direct election to the Presidency. They feared a tyrant could manipulate public opinion and come to power. Hamilton wrote in the Federalist Papers:

It was equally desirable, that the immediate election should be made by men most capable of analyzing the qualities adapted to the station, and acting under circumstances favorable to deliberation, and to a judicious combination of all the reasons and inducements which were proper to govern their choice. A small number of persons, selected by their fellow-citizens from the general mass, will be most likely to possess the information and discernment requisite to such complicated investigations. It was also peculiarly desirable to afford as little opportunity as possible to tumult and disorder. This evil was not least to be dreaded in the election of a magistrate, who was to have so important an agency in the administration of the government as the President of the United States. But the precautions which have been so happily concerted in the system under consideration, promise an effectual security against this mischief.

(See All of the Federalist 68)

Hamilton and the other founders believed that the electors would be able to ensure that only a qualified person becomes President. They thought that with the Electoral College no one would be able to manipulate the citizenry. It would act as a check on an electorate that might be duped. Hamilton and the other founders did not trust the population to make the right choice. The founders also believed that the Electoral College had the advantage of being a group that met only once and thus could not be manipulated over time by foreign governments or others.
Yep, no need in second guessing our forefathers' ability to see into the future, or even consider the possibility of making changes more in line with the current times, population, and technology.  ::)


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RideTheGlide

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #714 on: April 29, 2019, 11:09:13 AM »
The electoral college is not required for a federal republic to exist.  However it is how the founding fathers set up our government.
And they deserve our respect for the most part, but not our reverence. Changes were expected to be needed as we discovered how things played out. The 12th amendment changed the way the presidential election works substantially. Without that amendment, Hillary would be Trump's VP.
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pdxmike

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #715 on: April 29, 2019, 11:47:28 AM »
If there were no electoral college, your state wouldn't have made a decision that creates a situation where even if every voter in your state voted for one candidate, every one of your electoral votes could go to his or her opponent.  Instead of that fiasco, I'd rather have no electoral college, with my vote counting the same as everyone else's.


Not sure why you're talking about Trump, "your side", etc.

The "fiasco" in my state is exactly that,  no electoral college.  I would rather that my vote count toward my states share in the presidential decision.

As fas as Trump, your side, etc ..   All the discussion that I hear about electoral college being outdated or a bad thing seems to be coming from those who feel that Hillary Clintons popular vote win should have had her as president.
JP
Well, what you've got now seems like the worst of both worlds.  You DO still have the electoral system in your state, but how it votes is based on how other individuals in other states vote, even if their choice differs from people in your state.  Everyone in your state could vote for one candidate, and your state's electoral votes could go to the opponent. 

Bean

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #716 on: April 29, 2019, 12:04:37 PM »
With the electoral college in place, presidential candidates naturally need to get electoral votes from multiple regions and therefore have to build campaign platforms with a widespread national focus.  Without the college, many regions in the US would be ignored to the benefit of more highly populated metropolitan areas.  Rural regions would be marginalized for sure.  In this case we are not trying to be equal, at best we might be somewhat equitable...

I'm not saying that there can't be reform, but it's not as simple as switching off a light bulb. 

RideTheGlide

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #717 on: April 29, 2019, 12:24:40 PM »
With the electoral college in place, presidential candidates naturally need to get electoral votes from multiple regions and therefore have to build campaign platforms with a widespread national focus.  Without the college, many regions in the US would be ignored to the benefit of more highly populated metropolitan areas.  Rural regions would be marginalized for sure.  In this case we are not trying to be equal, at best we might be somewhat equitable...

I'm not saying that there can't be reform, but it's not as simple as switching off a light bulb.
The flip side is that we have a case where the minority rules instead. I am pretty sure that was not the intent.
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pdxmike

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #718 on: April 29, 2019, 12:30:54 PM »
With the electoral college in place, presidential candidates naturally need to get electoral votes from multiple regions and therefore have to build campaign platforms with a widespread national focus.  Without the college, many regions in the US would be ignored to the benefit of more highly populated metropolitan areas.  Rural regions would be marginalized for sure.  In this case we are not trying to be equal, at best we might be somewhat equitable...

I'm not saying that there can't be reform, but it's not as simple as switching off a light bulb.
I agree. There was a good discussion a year or two ago here with some good arguments in favor, or at least against a straight popular vote.  The arguments I don't buy are the ones (not from you) about keeping it because it's there, keeping it because people that question it are sore-loser Democrats, etc. Those kind of arguments don't counter the good arguments people are making against the electoral system, they just--ironically--make it sound like there are no good arguments for it.

spirit4earth

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #719 on: April 29, 2019, 12:33:47 PM »
To understand why it was implemented by the framers of the constitution and whether the same or similar conditions exist today to warrant retaining it.

I think we can see with our own, present-day perspective that the time is past for an electoral college. 

 


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