Poll

This is a uniquely informed and diverse group to survey on any question, most definitely this one.  At this point, for whom would you cast your ballot?

Trump
19 (46.3%)
Biden
9 (22%)
Sanders
8 (19.5%)
Booker
4 (9.8%)
Klobuchar
1 (2.4%)

Total Members Voted: 41

Voting closed: March 21, 2019, 04:39:47 PM

Author Topic: 2020 Vision  (Read 124010 times)

Bean

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #645 on: April 25, 2019, 05:25:26 PM »
I hear he’s got a wicked slice... ;D

Area 10

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #646 on: April 25, 2019, 05:38:29 PM »
https://youtu.be/Ekz1uTgTVVI

Hmm... thoughts? Has “ultra-capitalism” (as PB called it) led to a situation where the pharma companies have hog-tied you and your family to logs, and are shafting you at will, while their CEOs sip cocktails on a super-yacht, laughing at you? Or maybe I’m misunderstanding the freedom as a consumer in this situation that you want to protect so much? Make pharma companies great again! :)
« Last Edit: April 25, 2019, 05:46:07 PM by Area 10 »

spirit4earth

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #647 on: April 25, 2019, 06:17:42 PM »
Regardless of your opinion on opinion polls, with a healthy dose of skepticism Biden has a comfortable lead. 

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2020/president/us/general_election_trump_vs_biden-6247.html
You’ve just made my day - thank you very much for that.

Unfortunately, Trump is now going to be given a state visit to the UK, with all the royal regalia and pomp and ceremony. It’s going to cost us an absolute fortune because he is so unpopular that the police presence will have to be so substantial that unsolved crime around the country will skyrocket. The British people are so torn in opinion about this: we want to respect the democratic choice of the US population and so treat the position of president with due respect and honour. However overwhelmingly we loathe Trump and the brand of politics he represents, and are extremely worried about his attitude to climate change. His visit also is timed to coincide with the 75th anniversary of D-Day, and the fear is that the inevitable furore surrounding his visit will overshadow that.

So please elect Biden as fast as possible so that we can line up in the streets to welcome him with open arms and wave US flags in unbridled thanks and appreciation to you.

No need to fear disrespecting the democratic choice of the US population.  Only a small percentage of citizens, overall, voted for trump.  Please, have massive protests, and feel free to keep him there.

lucabrasi

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #648 on: April 25, 2019, 10:40:07 PM »
https://youtu.be/Ekz1uTgTVVI
Hmm... thoughts?

well...not quite sure just exactly what to think about her just yet but the more I see of her.....this is getting close.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wt6IG1UBPJE

Has “ultra-capitalism” (as PB called it) led to a situation where the pharma companies have hog-tied you and your family to logs, and are shafting you at will, while their CEOs sip cocktails on a super-yacht, laughing at you? Or maybe I’m misunderstanding the freedom as a consumer in this situation that you want to protect so much? Make pharma companies great again! :)
Naw. Lobbies, career politicians, corruption.
That's going on somehow, someway, every day in every form of government, ain't it?

Not sure what she is trying to do there, what point is trying to be made, or where that ties into our "freedom as a consumer".
Tax $ for R&D......product comes to market....it's way expensive.
One entity using their buying power to negotiate a lower price? Walmart vs. Sam's Deli? VA vs. CVS? No, it was VA vs. Medicare. hmmmm.
One doctor says the government should do this......the other one says, no, it should do this....
Did I follow that right?
Lobbyists? Corruption?

The drugs are still jacked up far too much even for the VA......it's far deeper than what that is trying to paint a picture of which I still can't quite see what that picture is supposed to be. wtf is all that about?
This has been an issue for far, far longer than......well hell, this century. It goes back so far and is so convoluted and corrupt that I am not sure there is anyone to blame and it just keeps going. Ritalin/valium/all the good stuff. Actually, a very good argument could be made that the whole issue with it is one of the reasons that dude is in that house making a state visit to your place. Not saying he is fixing it or doing anything about it (no clue) but for anyone to blame that mess on him or even what's going on currently with that mess doesn't help anything. He ran on that kind of stuff being that broken and if it wasn't that broken he wouldn't be there.....and is what most of this thread has been about...….our broken healthcare system which in the end, isn't just a liberal vs conservative vs socialism vs capitalism fault or thing.
Don't matter what system.....someone going to get rich off them drugs while sipping cocktails on a yacht and someone going to be paying through the nose somehow or not getting them.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2019, 10:46:51 PM by lucabrasi »

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #649 on: April 26, 2019, 12:28:29 AM »
It’s just not true that you can’t do anything, Lucabrasi. You could easily fix this. But  your post demonstrates nicely why you are being ripped off, when other countries aren’t (so much). We in the UK pay less for our drugs than you do because we have a National Health Service that is the largest employer in the world. So it has huge bargaining power. And we support them in their fight, at the ballot box. But since you guys seem to think that a solution like that is fundamentally “un-American” you are in the situation you are in. *You* made this mess. And apparently you think that it is inevitable. That’s a shame.

Trump is a populist demagogue. Populism is a protest; it doesn’t offer solutions. It’s all very well shouting “f-you!” at the ballot box - and who could blame you (we in the UK did that recently too). But unless a path forward has been proposed then nothing will change, or, more like, things will actually get even worse. If you are going to attach the word “socialist” to any potential solution that involves your government getting into a fight with the corporations that rip you off, then those corporations are gonna keep ripping you off.

So, how about shaking off that nihilism and learned helplessness, and having the courage to vote for something different? It looks to me that you have some people you could vote for who’d have the balls to say “f-you” to the system in a positive way, by offering new and different ways forward, instead of the wholly negative way that Trump offers. But the question is whether you have the courage to fully support them, rather than carry on doing the same tired old thing.

For something to change, something has to change. Maybe start with your mindset? YOU made this. YOU can fix it.

And the point AOC was making was very clear: that it is fundamentally unfair for the taxpayer to fund drug research and then not get a return on that investment when the drug is taken to market. She is proposing that the pharma companies should have to pay back to the people the investment they made, when the drug starts making money. At the moment you are paying twice for your drugs (the ones invented in the US): you pay for it to be developed, and then you pay when you use it too. Doesn’t that seem unfair to you?

If so, then do something about it.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2019, 12:36:14 AM by Area 10 »

eastbound

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #650 on: April 26, 2019, 01:23:49 AM »
did you watch the video, luca?

no clue what youre talking about
aoc is quite articulate and effective on panel, something conceded even by many who differ with her---your comments are simply unintelligible, and your video is a childish, useless add to the discussion

throw stones, live in a solid house--yours aint


https://youtu.be/Ekz1uTgTVVI
Hmm... thoughts?

well...not quite sure just exactly what to think about her just yet but the more I see of her.....this is getting close.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wt6IG1UBPJE

Has “ultra-capitalism” (as PB called it) led to a situation where the pharma companies have hog-tied you and your family to logs, and are shafting you at will, while their CEOs sip cocktails on a super-yacht, laughing at you? Or maybe I’m misunderstanding the freedom as a consumer in this situation that you want to protect so much? Make pharma companies great again! :)


Naw. Lobbies, career politicians, corruption.
That's going on somehow, someway, every day in every form of government, ain't it?

Not sure what she is trying to do there, what point is trying to be made, or where that ties into our "freedom as a consumer".
Tax $ for R&D......product comes to market....it's way expensive.
One entity using their buying power to negotiate a lower price? Walmart vs. Sam's Deli? VA vs. CVS? No, it was VA vs. Medicare. hmmmm.
One doctor says the government should do this......the other one says, no, it should do this....
Did I follow that right?
Lobbyists? Corruption?

The drugs are still jacked up far too much even for the VA......it's far deeper than what that is trying to paint a picture of which I still can't quite see what that picture is supposed to be. wtf is all that about?
This has been an issue for far, far longer than......well hell, this century. It goes back so far and is so convoluted and corrupt that I am not sure there is anyone to blame and it just keeps going. Ritalin/valium/all the good stuff. Actually, a very good argument could be made that the whole issue with it is one of the reasons that dude is in that house making a state visit to your place. Not saying he is fixing it or doing anything about it (no clue) but for anyone to blame that mess on him or even what's going on currently with that mess doesn't help anything. He ran on that kind of stuff being that broken and if it wasn't that broken he wouldn't be there.....and is what most of this thread has been about...….our broken healthcare system which in the end, isn't just a liberal vs conservative vs socialism vs capitalism fault or thing.
Don't matter what system.....someone going to get rich off them drugs while sipping cocktails on a yacht and someone going to be paying through the nose somehow or not getting them.
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Area 10

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #651 on: April 26, 2019, 04:17:39 AM »
Yes, she certainly is very eloquent. She also appears very dedicated to her job, smart, and displays a firm sense of justice. No doubt this is exactly why the alt-right are targeting her with smears so vociferously. You basically couldn’t get less like Trump than AOC: If you fed Trump into an AI and asked it to generate the exact opposite, then AOC would probably be it’s output.

https://youtu.be/VWx0ESjxO54

eastbound

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #652 on: April 26, 2019, 05:08:38 AM »
great example of aoc doing panel, and very well--seen it before

but what about the gray-haired woman in foreground, late in the vid---definitely security--like she is a heavy secret service agent or something--she is scoping that room with hawk-eyes

aoc has been made a serious death-threat target by trump and the alt right

she's part of the "coup"--scary
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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #653 on: April 26, 2019, 05:10:38 AM »
Should the government be funding drug research for the drug companies?  Should the government be structuring free loans to Boeing, etc.  Should the government be propping up oil companies?  Bailing out Banks?  Autos? 

Students don't get the same treatment.  Small business doesn't.  Most individuals don't.  It is that kind of inequity that frustrates so many.  It seems that the biggest abusers are getting the most assistance.  All that said, you can promote a level playing field without going to extremes.  That seems to be the problem.  Isolate the issue correctly but then move to a solution that is so far to one side that it becomes politically impossible.

eastbound

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #654 on: April 26, 2019, 05:36:17 AM »
problem is that those who benefit from status quo kleptocracy will fight tooth and nail to retain their advantage

and who defines extreme?--is it not extreme that families pay 20k per year out of wages, so they can then have thousands in deductibles, before they get a dime outta their health  "insurer"? that's an extreme fuckjob of what's left of our middle class--why is it extreme to say we shd have the same healthcare afforded by and considered a right of citizens in other developed countries?--framing single payer or socialized medicine as extreme is part of the problem--the US approach to medical care is extreme, unique ripoff--europeans i know are appalled when then learn of details of our "healthcare" system--i am appalled at the differences, and that these countries can afford to provide comparable or better care--i guess we're just poor--weird, with all the private jets flying around these days!

college costs and student debt?--another extreme, unique ripoff

our approach to many contemporary societal issues is the exceptional extreme, by far--and it's all about using our extreme unique approach to these issues to enrich few on the backs of regular folk

for profit prisons? you know their pac is a perennial top donor to anti-marijuana-legalization initiatives? think that's altruism? nope--lock more up, buy more jets!

and i could go on--but, when measured against other western democracies (all of whom mix social programs and regulation with fundamental capitalism), we are the extremists---gotta get our democracy working for the people again--not just the rich and powerful

of course the repubs and rich right wingers (kochs, adelson, blah, blah) frame that as extreme! what they have effected and what is currently in force in the US is the true extreme--
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lucabrasi

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #655 on: April 26, 2019, 06:43:07 AM »
did you watch the video, luca?
of course I did, you must not have read what I had to say about it or just couldn't bother to add anything constructive as you seemed to think the video was all I had to say.

It’s just not true that you can’t do anything, Lucabrasi. You could easily fix this. But  your post demonstrates nicely why you are being ripped off, when other countries aren’t (so much). We in the UK pay less for our drugs than you do because we have a National Health Service that is the largest employer in the world. So it has huge bargaining power. And we support them in their fight, at the ballot box. But since you guys seem to think that a solution like that is fundamentally “un-American” you are in the situation you are in. *You* made this mess. And apparently you think that it is inevitable. That’s a shame.

Trump is a populist demagogue. Populism is a protest; it doesn’t offer solutions. It’s all very well shouting “f-you!” at the ballot box - and who could blame you (we in the UK did that recently too). But unless a path forward has been proposed then nothing will change, or, more like, things will actually get even worse. If you are going to attach the word “socialist” to any potential solution that involves your government getting into a fight with the corporations that rip you off, then those corporations are gonna keep ripping you off.

So, how about shaking off that nihilism and learned helplessness, and having the courage to vote for something different? It looks to me that you have some people you could vote for who’d have the balls to say “f-you” to the system in a positive way, by offering new and different ways forward, instead of the wholly negative way that Trump offers. But the question is whether you have the courage to fully support them, rather than carry on doing the same tired old thing.

For something to change, something has to change. Maybe start with your mindset? YOU made this. YOU can fix it.

UK health system is the largest employer in the world? No shit? I had no clue nor would have even guessed close.
I don't think the UK has the most buying power for the drugs tho, I think that would be us (or China but I got no clue what their health system is about) but where I go with that is your system might be bigger but we got more people buying the drugs than anyone so we should have the buying power no matter how big the buyer is? Wouldn't it work like that?

but I get where you are going with that...I think...seems I understand more about what you say at times...…..whoops, I didn't say that…..it's more about us and not trusting the government over here and your embrace of the system more so over there. Honest question here. Is everyone getting the drugs/care they need over there and getting it when they need it and want it? Is it really cheaper? Is Pharma company charging UK $5 for the pill and us $10 or are they charging UK $8-$10 and is it just muddled through the system and the consumer at the end doesn't know because it just comes out in the wash?
And the point AOC was making was very clear: that it is fundamentally unfair for the taxpayer to fund drug research and then not get a return on that investment when the drug is taken to market. She is proposing that the pharma companies should have to pay back to the people the investment they made, when the drug starts making money. At the moment you are paying twice for your drugs (the ones invented in the US): you pay for it to be developed, and then you pay when you use it too. Doesn’t that seem unfair to you?

If so, then do something about it.
ok...thanks......I wasn't wrapping that part of it around my head because I guess I was a little shocked to hear the part about the tax $ at the begining. Why is she not pointing out how the tax $ get into the research part of things tho? How is that happening? No one wants the government doing everything for them and no one minds the government helping those who truly need help. Balancing that is the tricky part and the part we haven't figured out how to do yet. Corruption, with lobbies and career politicians feeding the corruption and lobbies. Hell, I don't mind some of my money going to research, I don't think you do and I don't think that guy over there or his buddy mind either. It's about how it really gets used in the end....sipping cocktails on that yacht?

Should the government be funding drug research for the drug companies?  Should the government be structuring free loans to Boeing, etc.  Should the government be propping up oil companies?  Bailing out Banks?  Autos? 

Students don't get the same treatment.  Small business doesn't.  Most individuals don't.  It is that kind of inequity that frustrates so many.  It seems that the biggest abusers are getting the most assistance.  All that said, you can promote a level playing field without going to extremes.  That seems to be the problem.  Isolate the issue correctly but then move to a solution that is so far to one side that it becomes politically impossible.
Ok, maybe that answers some of the question....hell, I don't know.

Yes, she certainly is very eloquent. She also appears very dedicated to her job, smart, and displays a firm sense of justice. No doubt this is exactly why the alt-right are targeting her with smears so vociferously. You basically couldn’t get less like Trump than AOC: If you fed Trump into an AI and asked it to generate the exact opposite, then AOC would probably be it’s output.

https://youtu.be/VWx0ESjxO54
she is really not doing anything there other than pointing out how Trump is manipulating his taxes. It's not some magic (or her staff) she came up with. He's doing the exact same thing we all do except on a scale we can't comprehend. Depreciate this, devalue that, credit this, fudge that. Ok, maybe he fudges more then what many/most/some would but it's really not pointing out anything other than it's on a scale we can't even imagine.

Like I said, I am not quite sure just what to think about her just yet. She is interesting, her story is interesting but I not sure she is as smart as many want to think. I think she is getting more exposed as time goes on and refuses to answer or acknowledge some of her detractors, some of whom are her peers and very much like her. Regardless it will be interesting to follow.

I am not wrapped up in all of this, not trying to defend Trump and honestly don't follow real close, it just bleeds through (my word, how it bleeds through anymore) on some of the things I do and I catch bits and pieces here and there.
It's a mess, has been for a long time and …..
Isolate the issue correctly but then move to a solution that is so far to one side that it becomes politically impossible.
yeah...….it's really an issue and it is just amplified so much now...……….
« Last Edit: April 26, 2019, 06:46:27 AM by lucabrasi »

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #656 on: April 26, 2019, 09:21:55 AM »
and who defines extreme?

I would define it as so far to one side that it becomes politically impossible.  Barack wanted to do much more with healthcare and could not get it done.  He barely got the current system through. 

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #657 on: April 26, 2019, 10:26:13 AM »

No need to fear disrespecting the democratic choice of the US population.  Only a small percentage of citizens, overall, voted for trump.  Please, have massive protests, and feel free to keep him there.

Since when is just under 50% Only a small percentage ???   I don't think the big cities should choose who runs the country.  He won the electoral college because he campaigned hard in every state he had a chance of winning.   
   I got to keep 3% more of my pay this year,  and I made more money due to the good economy.     Lets get out there and protest !

Area 10

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #658 on: April 26, 2019, 11:56:31 AM »
This was the vote tally:

Clinton: 65,844,610 (48.2%)
Trump: 62,979,636 (46.1%)
Others: 7,804,213 (5.7%)

(https://www.dailywire.com/news/11777/how-many-votes-did-trump-and-clinton-get-final-james-barrett)

There are approximately 327 million US citizens. So, technically, only around 19% of US citizens voted for Trump.

Or to put it another way, 81% of US citizens did *not* vote for Trump.

I think that is what spirit4earth meant.


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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #659 on: April 26, 2019, 05:52:52 PM »
More usefully than counting everyone including all those not qualified to vote, the number of people in the USA that registered to vote in the 2016 election was about 200 million, the number that were eligible was about 220 million.  About 137 million people voted. Trump got 62,979,636 votes, which is 28.6 percent of the qualified voters, 31 percent of the registered voters.

The USA scores the worst among western democracies in several widely respected and impartial integrity indexes.

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