Poll

This is a uniquely informed and diverse group to survey on any question, most definitely this one.  At this point, for whom would you cast your ballot?

Trump
19 (46.3%)
Biden
9 (22%)
Sanders
8 (19.5%)
Booker
4 (9.8%)
Klobuchar
1 (2.4%)

Total Members Voted: 41

Voting closed: March 21, 2019, 04:39:47 PM

Author Topic: 2020 Vision  (Read 32339 times)

PonoBill

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #600 on: April 19, 2019, 11:42:06 AM »
Wow, that second paragraph lead would have me throwing my blue pencil at a writer who worked for me. Makes my editorial eye twitch. Too late to modify, the shame is indelible.
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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #601 on: April 20, 2019, 03:10:13 AM »
This article popped up on my feed this AM.  Interesting in terms of our discussions about Socialism and Democratic Socialism.  https://www.yahoo.com/news/apos-democratic-socialists-apos-sanders-090009780.html

Area 10

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #602 on: April 20, 2019, 04:24:59 AM »
This article popped up on my feed this AM.  Interesting in terms of our discussions about Socialism and Democratic Socialism.  https://www.yahoo.com/news/apos-democratic-socialists-apos-sanders-090009780.html
Interesting to read. But a load of balls. The stuff about Jeremy Corbyn is a set of the usual stuff that our right-wing press trots out in order to protect their financial interests. I am no fan of Corbyn. But those who believe in reaching out to marginalised groups rather than reinforcing divisions between communities will find themselves fodder for this kind of easy attack.

I think Bernie etc are nuts to go anywhere the S word. Why load yourself up with all that unhelpful baggage? Most of the population, surely, just wants a safety net in their lives that means they can stay safe and healthy if the randomness of life throws a spanner in their aspirations? And then they are happy to let private industry do the rest, as long as they don’t interfere with their basic rights, health and welfare. Are Bernie or AOC etc really suggesting anything else? I doubt it.

Plus, as we have discussed before, there might be some things (like healthcare) that might actually be done more efficiently (in terms of overall health of the populations vs dollars spent) by the government. Of course, the “market” only really works for the consumer if there really is a market, and that it isn’t “gamed” or monopolised by a small cadre of people who don’t care about the consumers. You guys describe a healthcare system so Byzantine and opaque that it’s almost impossible to know what you are really buying or what the risks are, and where you are paying for layer upon layer of marketing, legal costs, and administration. If your health system was run by the government you could control it, whereas at the moment it seems that you feel powerless over it. For a population to puts so much store by being in democratic control, it seems odd to me that you’d want such a big part of your lives to be dictated to you by faceless people over whom you have no control.

Fishman

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #603 on: April 20, 2019, 07:44:14 AM »
the finest, most efficient/effective socialist institution in the world is the US Military
100% disagree. As Margaret Thatcher said "socialism is great until you run out of other people's money."

 US military creates zero wealth. They exist only because they have a outside source for money. Stop that source and they fail. Which is about as it efficient as it gets. 
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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #604 on: April 20, 2019, 09:28:39 AM »
OK tacticians, the report is now (mostly?) in.  Mueller wrote, “Congress may apply the obstruction laws to the President’s corrupt exercise of the powers of office,”.   That conclusion, he said, “accords with our constitutional system of checks and balances and the principle that no person is above the law.”

So, how would you proceed?

eastbound

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #605 on: April 20, 2019, 02:28:53 PM »
disagree as you wish--but it's "other people's (taxpayers') money" that funds our military, and we're not gonna run out--so, yeah, us military is a worthy socialist institution (within our "mixed economy") with staying power.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2019, 02:31:37 PM by eastbound »
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RideTheGlide

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #606 on: April 20, 2019, 02:48:02 PM »
This article popped up on my feed this AM.  Interesting in terms of our discussions about Socialism and Democratic Socialism.  https://www.yahoo.com/news/apos-democratic-socialists-apos-sanders-090009780.html
Interesting to read. But a load of balls. The stuff about Jeremy Corbyn is a set of the usual stuff that our right-wing press trots out in order to protect their financial interests. I am no fan of Corbyn. But those who believe in reaching out to marginalised groups rather than reinforcing divisions between communities will find themselves fodder for this kind of easy attack.

I think Bernie etc are nuts to go anywhere the S word. Why load yourself up with all that unhelpful baggage? Most of the population, surely, just wants a safety net in their lives that means they can stay safe and healthy if the randomness of life throws a spanner in their aspirations? And then they are happy to let private industry do the rest, as long as they don’t interfere with their basic rights, health and welfare. Are Bernie or AOC etc really suggesting anything else? I doubt it.

Plus, as we have discussed before, there might be some things (like healthcare) that might actually be done more efficiently (in terms of overall health of the populations vs dollars spent) by the government. Of course, the “market” only really works for the consumer if there really is a market, and that it isn’t “gamed” or monopolised by a small cadre of people who don’t care about the consumers. You guys describe a healthcare system so Byzantine and opaque that it’s almost impossible to know what you are really buying or what the risks are, and where you are paying for layer upon layer of marketing, legal costs, and administration. If your health system was run by the government you could control it, whereas at the moment it seems that you feel powerless over it. For a population to puts so much store by being in democratic control, it seems odd to me that you’d want such a big part of your lives to be dictated to you by faceless people over whom you have no control.
We might part company on one point if I understand you correctly. I am for a single payer system administered by the government, but not government run healthcare. IOW, the Canadian system not what the UK has. They do end up exercising some control but it's far less direct. Our government is very dysfunctional; we elect representatives and then they ignore the consensus of their constituents. Even though we are a democracy, it isn't voters that get you elected. How crazy is that? Anyway, in anything resembling its current state, I don't want the government running the healthcare system other than by placing some reasonable restrictions on costs.

I think the article was  ridiculously over-hyping things and jumping to conclusions to brand anyone slightly left as being against free enterprise. It's right wing propaganda IMO.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2019, 02:49:40 PM by RideTheGlide »
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Tom

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #607 on: April 20, 2019, 04:12:55 PM »
Code: [Select]
I'd rather see responsibility and good governance come out of the Republican party--they have the right DNA, and the wrong people running the show.

are you saying "Make Republicans great again"?

If they went back to their older principles, there would be less divisiveness.


lucabrasi

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #608 on: April 20, 2019, 04:53:50 PM »
soooo.....
2020 and all.
I thought about this while I was trying out some new prescription glasses vs my old ones earlier today.....I got new contacts and old ones too.....
Got astigmatism.....(other 'ism's too..)
Need bifocals now (but I can have progressives now, if you can handle them, they're a little different..)
I'm blind as a bat since I was 6. Maybe always?
Who's the first guy who figured out to hold something over their eye to see better......or better yet...put something on your eyeball.
Think a machine would have been able to figure that out?

…..ok....nevermind....
other 2020.....

...back to the 2019 pre primary carcass count...…

Rider

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #609 on: April 20, 2019, 05:35:00 PM »
I firmly believe impeachment is the ONLY choice. I am hoping Pelosi does the deed on Monday. Burnie is my guy. Don’t let the establishment democrats tilt the scale again. Feel the Burn.....    MAGA.   TRUMP 2020.

Fishman

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #610 on: April 20, 2019, 07:43:41 PM »
disagree as you wish--but it's "other people's (taxpayers') money" that funds our military, and we're not gonna run out--so, yeah, us military is a worthy socialist institution (within our "mixed economy") with staying power.

Worthy and effective, absolutely correct. Efficient and socialist, not so much. A social service, and socialism are completely different things.

Maybe we have different definition of socialism.

Socialism means public control over the means of production (capital) and collective management by workers. The military is neither capital nor managed by the workers. The defining feature of socialism is social control of the means of production, Or capital goods, And collective management by workers. The military is not a capitol good, But a collective good. Moreover it is not managed by the workers, But responds to the orders of the civilian leaders. Moreover, The military is intertwined with the privately owner defense contractors who comprise one element of the military-industrial complex. Socialists frequently complain that the military serves the interest of the capitalists, Which hardly supports the argument that the military is a socialist construct"
« Last Edit: April 20, 2019, 07:48:58 PM by Fishman »
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PonoBill

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #611 on: April 20, 2019, 08:05:46 PM »
yup Fishman, I have no idea what Eastbound is talking about, and I generally do. You might as well call the EPA a socialist organization, or maybe the IRS.
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pdxmike

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #612 on: April 20, 2019, 08:58:58 PM »
soooo.....
2020 and all.
I thought about this while I was trying out some new prescription glasses vs my old ones earlier today.....I got new contacts and old ones too.....
Got astigmatism.....(other 'ism's too..)
Need bifocals now (but I can have progressives now, if you can handle them, they're a little different..)
I'm blind as a bat since I was 6. Maybe always?
Who's the first guy who figured out to hold something over their eye to see better......or better yet...put something on your eyeball.
Think a machine would have been able to figure that out?

…..ok....nevermind....
other 2020.....

...back to the 2019 pre primary carcass count...…
My eye doctor recommended progressive lenses for me but I told him let's keep politics out of this.

surfinJ

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #613 on: April 21, 2019, 04:59:07 AM »
As anyone who has been in the US military knows, it provides universal health care, guaranteed affordable housing, free education and affordable food and dry goods, and cheap energy.

This is quite the socialist system and what I think eastbound means.

RideTheGlide

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #614 on: April 21, 2019, 07:10:35 AM »
yup Fishman, I have no idea what Eastbound is talking about, and I generally do. You might as well call the EPA a socialist organization, or maybe the IRS.
To some degree, nearly all governments have socialist elements. It's not the same as the sort of social programs we are generally speaking of when we talk about it. Pointing that out is just a nit to muddy the conversation. It's hard to argue against a good safety net without coming across as heartless, so muddying the conversation is a common tactic.
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