Poll

This is a uniquely informed and diverse group to survey on any question, most definitely this one.  At this point, for whom would you cast your ballot?

Trump
19 (46.3%)
Biden
9 (22%)
Sanders
8 (19.5%)
Booker
4 (9.8%)
Klobuchar
1 (2.4%)

Total Members Voted: 41

Voting closed: March 21, 2019, 04:39:47 PM

Author Topic: 2020 Vision  (Read 32598 times)

eastbound

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #585 on: April 18, 2019, 10:35:21 AM »
the finest, most efficient/effective socialist institution in the world is the US Military

why cant our govt run our student loan programs?---US issues 10 year notes monthly--yield to maturity of 2.50%--kids borrow money, that they will owe til they pay, or die (only form of debt--incl corporate, business, or personal--that doesnt go away in bankruptcy) and our college kids pay 7+%

our banks have paid politicians to allow the "free market" to handle these loans, even tho many are govt guaranteed, so the banks have zero exposure anyway, yet make huge monaey on the backs of college kids hoping to get in on our economy some day----and the banks make loans all the day long at way lower rates than student loans to entities that can and do frequently go bankrupt and walk away

so gross the way weve allowed this--fleece the future earning of our college kids!!!!!!!!!!  perfect, and not surprising--not too many $$ being sprayed around DC by college kids---Banks?? ha! $$$$$$$$$$$  benjamins flowing

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Tom

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #586 on: April 18, 2019, 10:50:12 AM »
The freedom dividend to be funded by the tech companies that are displacing jobs via value added tax, ie. Amazon.

Currently the US is unable to collect income tax from Amazon and other tech companies; I don't think there's much chance of them paying a freedom dividend.

pdxmike

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #587 on: April 18, 2019, 11:09:18 AM »
The irony would be that under socialism, the machines would get the profits (the workers own the means of production). ;D
I've read that a century ago machines even took over politics in places like Chicago.

spirit4earth

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #588 on: April 18, 2019, 11:17:36 AM »
A guaranteed monthly income would be great, but guaranteed (and thorough) health care might be more helpful.  Safe and up-to-code housing for all, healthcare, and education—-for any and all ages—-would probably be more helpful than just giving us all money.  For those of us who are unable to work, then a monthly stipend would be helpful, and yes, cash is always helpful, but a lot of us need the basics:  housing and healthcare.

Area10, I like that tiered income plan in the UK!  It makes a lot more sense than just having a 7.25/hr minimum wage like we have in the US.  Seriously??  7.25/hr??   We are then getting into indentured servitude.  Scraping by while drowning in debt to the “company store”.  Having health problems that will never get taken care of, but hey, if the poor folks die off, who cares?

Bean

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #589 on: April 18, 2019, 11:29:47 AM »
And here is how a family of the future might get around all this AI/Robotics mumbo jumbo...

Area 10

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #590 on: April 18, 2019, 11:44:59 AM »
The irony would be that under socialism, the machines would get the profits (the workers own the means of production). ;D
Nah, what you’d do is allow people to invest the 1000 dollars a month in a robot, which goes to work for them, and then they get paid for everything their robot does. Robot slaves! Then the workers are indeed the producers, they just don’t physically do the production; they enable it.

And there you have it - the AI future is an idler’s dream, where “your” robot goes to work every day to earn money for you, while you go surfing :)

Admin

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #591 on: April 18, 2019, 12:16:42 PM »
The turn this thread has taken is actually quite funny: “Robots turned me into a socialist”. :) :)

It would be terrific to have a president that would enpanel experts and thouroughly consider how this has progressed to date and how it will likely unfold going forward using the existing data to drive those processes.  Barack was certainly involved in doing so. 

Jumping straight to Universal Basic Income is 10 steps too far at this point and may ultimately prove not be a valid direction.  I don't feel like anyone knows that at this point.  Campaigning on this would certainly hand Trump the election.  Is it more important that you get to say the word Socialist than it is to have sanity in governance?  Shoot your own foot if you must.  It's that goofy looking thing on the end of your leg.  Rally the 18% of Americans who like the word Socialist into a unified knot, but don't complain when you get another 4 years of the same.

Area 10

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #592 on: April 18, 2019, 01:14:06 PM »
Oh, I don’t believe ANY US politician should be using the S word. It’s totally unnecessary, and not an accurate description of what they mean anyway. All everyone here who is left-leaning is talking about is creating a kinder society. That’s all it is. A society where things that matter are valued, and the people that do them are rewarded, and no-one has to die on the streets through no fault of their own. That’s got nothing to do with socialism or capitalism or communism of any other “ism” you care to mention. It’s something else entirely. It’s about seeing a population of people as an ecological system, and devising checks and balances to maintain the health of that system. At the moment we are out of whack: all the foxes have been let into the hen house at once, and they are gonna gorge themselves until the hens that lay the eggs are gone, then feast upon each other until there’s no-one left and they die too. Democracy is a fine balance.


Area 10

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #593 on: April 18, 2019, 01:17:51 PM »
I am a believer in basic income.

http://www.marshallbrain.com/basic-income.htm

and of course the recently trending Rutger Bregman:
https://www.businessinsider.com/basic-income-ted-talk-rutger-bregman-2017-5

The linked video from the article is pretty good. If you are against basic income, you don't want to debate him.
That’s an interesting and thought-provoking TED talk for sure. A bit light on detail. But you’d think it would be an experiment worth trying. Hands up those who’d like to live in the town they decided to run that program in?

https://www.ted.com/talks/rutger_bregman_poverty_isn_t_a_lack_of_character_it_s_a_lack_of_cash/up-next#t-889760

Maybe that should be Elon Musk’s next project.

SaMoSUP

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #594 on: April 18, 2019, 01:18:40 PM »
So it was ok to bail out banks and auto industry in the past but it's too far fetched to bail out the people who are getting the shaft once again?

I haven't been in favor of UBI in the past since I lean more towards trickle down economics. But clearly that component seems to be broken at this point since a lot of corporations are just hoarding cash and not putting it back into the economy. It's like a clogged shower. Someone's gotta unclog it. Funding UBI through tech companies that are drivers of worker displacement may not be too far fetched.

« Last Edit: April 18, 2019, 01:33:10 PM by SaMoSUP »

spirit4earth

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #595 on: April 18, 2019, 01:57:55 PM »
Note the “free on the NHS” part.

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PonoBill

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #596 on: April 18, 2019, 09:45:33 PM »
Of course we actually have a form of UBI currently. Do a little research on income tax in America. It's not what you think it is. Graduated income taxes are a form of redistribution. If the system were working as it's supposed to it would already be reasonably fair.  But as it is about 44 to 47 percent of Americans pay no federal income tax. Couples with three children earning less than about 60K per year can receive an EITC of about 6K. It doesn't do much for single people or couples with no kids, but the framework is there and its relatively easy to manage the return so that earning an additional dollar of income is always better than not. It makes a lot more sense to me to increase the EITC than to raise the minimum wage or create some new UBI system since the transition to earner making enough to not be on the dole is graceful and automatic. .
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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #597 on: April 19, 2019, 06:01:47 AM »
I see a fundamental difference in paying people not to work rather than not taxing, or lightly taxing, some who are working.   I don't believe that the UBI proposals that are being discussed are a renaming of the current structure, but rather are discussing additional funds (more money) being given to those who are not working (or possibly the underemployed as well).  If that is the case, where are those funds coming from?  The big issue that the Democratic Socialists face is explaining the paying.  All of the "__ for all" proposals sound nice but there is zero substance given on the payment side. 

We have a group of candidates who want to play Santa Clause.  It has proven to be a successful tactic.  Trump worked it and then did it in office.  Small bump to GDP and employment for a few months and then right back to grade level.  Trillions wasted. 

It is very frustrating to watch.

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #598 on: April 19, 2019, 08:14:21 AM »
I read all this, and the clamor for three months paid leave - because you elected to have a child. "..and, why shouldn't the father have the same right?!" ..privatizing Social Security because we would all be richer, bla-bla...

Jesus... we are sitting around divvy'ing up unrealized gains when, we in the States, are having our lunch eaten by China. We can't build cars for trains much less lay track to run them on.  We can't maintain the roads or bridges already built - forget new highways! 

This is called 'Federal Student Aid'...

You must repay your loans even if you don’t complete your education, can’t find a job related to your program of study, or are unhappy with the education you paid for with your loan. You also can’t claim that you have no responsibility for repaying your loan because you were a minor (under the age of 18) when you signed your promissory note or received the loan.

...essentially, what feels like signing for free money for educations that include canoeing (at our local U.) levels of meal tickets and accommodations, plane flights to play Lacrosse with an opposing team, only to discover you are not qualified for one the 7mil job opening that are currently unfilled.

We seem to spend more time deciding how to spend borrowed money between a Wolf or Viking stove for our patio kitchen, while China has figured out how to place a beautifully built, cedar Bluebird house at my doorstep for less than the price of the wood  ...if I could find cedar at a local lumberyard?!

We are fuc'd  ...there's nobody on the horizon I can see with the strength and integrity to lead us out of this dark tunnel we are in. 

Jim

...wanna see our real character:  Check into the Jeffery Epstein saga in south FL and NY  ...and the stream of luminaries entangled with this person who should have been placed in a trash compactor.
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PonoBill

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #599 on: April 19, 2019, 09:51:56 AM »
China will probably experience the problem in a bigger way, sooner than the USA. Jack Ma has been preaching about it a lot lately. That the current arc of education in China will not lead students to jobs. He doesn't really have an answer either.

The issue isn't that there's not plenty of things that need to be done, it's that a lot of the jobs that traditionally paid a living wage are going away and not coming back. EITC is a means to supplement jobs that don't carry a living wage. At its current level and with its aim at supporting families rather than individuals it can't do what a UBI would, but that can change. We're likely to see something like the Job Corps, or WPA, working on public infrastructure, assuming we have a government capable of solving problems rather than creating them.

Currently, a lot of Americans who leave school and discover that they don't have a useful education join the military services. When/if we decide we are no longer the police force for the world that direction will dry up a bit, but the resources can be redirected to something more useful and less wasteful.

The biggest problem Democrats have is they try to out-lefty each other. They'd gain a lot more ground with something more responsible. Not that I'm really rooting for them, they simply are the only current alternative. I'd rather see responsibility and good governance come out of the Republican party--they have the right DNA, and the wrong people running the show.
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