Poll

This is a uniquely informed and diverse group to survey on any question, most definitely this one.  At this point, for whom would you cast your ballot?

Trump
19 (46.3%)
Biden
9 (22%)
Sanders
8 (19.5%)
Booker
4 (9.8%)
Klobuchar
1 (2.4%)

Total Members Voted: 41

Voting closed: March 21, 2019, 04:39:47 PM

Author Topic: 2020 Vision  (Read 44569 times)

Bean

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #495 on: April 08, 2019, 11:24:42 AM »
Ok so thereís a majority view here, and it is that there are a cadre of Trump supporters who are outright racists...

Yes a cadre, a small group (ralatively)...

A-10, perhaps you should administer the marshmallow test ;D

Bean

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #496 on: April 08, 2019, 11:27:36 AM »
A10 in your first paragraph you ask the question: So, as I asked before, at which point do you think that moderate Republicans be so offended by Trump that they would actually vote Dem and the answer is simple and plain. As soon as the D's run out a moderate politician for president.

Count me in SL!

Area 10

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #497 on: April 08, 2019, 11:48:06 AM »
Letís make my question to the Trump supporters here less abstract. Letís imagine that Trump did the following things. Which of them, if any, would lead to you actually voting for a Dem in the next election, regardless of who the Dems pick?

1. Trump brings in a new taxation system that rewards those whose families have lived longest in the US.

2. Trump brings in a system of local taxation differences where regions that make higher demands upon policing, Medicare and other government-supported resources have to pay much, much, more, in order to pay for it.

3. Trump makes all forms of sales tax illegal. Why should people be penalised for spending, right?

4. Trump sends US troops into the Middle East to defend Israeli interests, especially against Palestinians. Many Palestinians die.

5. Trump spends 70 billion dollars on his wall.

6. Trump withdraws from all strategic military alliances with existing allies.

7. Trump enters into strategic military alliances with Russia, China and North Korea.

8. Trump enters into a full-blown trade war with the European Union.

9. It is discovered that Trump paid for several abortions for women he impregnated.

10. It is discovered that Trump had sex with underage girls in Russia.

11. It is discovered that Trump had sex with underage boys when he was in Vietnam, recently.

12. It is discovered that Trump knowingly passed AIDS to a young foreigner during anal sex.

13. Trump makes promotion of climate change issues illegal.

14. Trump makes homosexuality punishable by death (like his friend the Sultan of Brunei).

15. Trump orders the closing of all Mosques in the US.

If you voted for Trump, which of these (if any) would be a deal-breaker for you?
« Last Edit: April 08, 2019, 11:50:43 AM by Area 10 »

Area 10

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #498 on: April 08, 2019, 12:35:40 PM »
Btw, in response to claims about Trumpís effect upon the economy, it is easy to see that the figures are just a continuation of trends which were already well under way during Obamaís presidency. Here is a good summary, and is likely to be about as unbiased as you are going to find:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-45827430

SUP Leave

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #499 on: April 08, 2019, 01:12:17 PM »
Letís make my question to the Trump supporters here less abstract. Letís imagine that Trump did the following things. Which of them, if any, would lead to you actually voting for a Dem in the next election, regardless of who the Dems pick?

1. Trump brings in a new taxation system that rewards those whose families have lived longest in the US.

2. Trump brings in a system of local taxation differences where regions that make higher demands upon policing, Medicare and other government-supported resources have to pay much, much, more, in order to pay for it.

3. Trump makes all forms of sales tax illegal. Why should people be penalised for spending, right?

4. Trump sends US troops into the Middle East to defend Israeli interests, especially against Palestinians. Many Palestinians die.

5. Trump spends 70 billion dollars on his wall.

6. Trump withdraws from all strategic military alliances with existing allies.

7. Trump enters into strategic military alliances with Russia, China and North Korea.

8. Trump enters into a full-blown trade war with the European Union.

9. It is discovered that Trump paid for several abortions for women he impregnated.

10. It is discovered that Trump had sex with underage girls in Russia.

11. It is discovered that Trump had sex with underage boys when he was in Vietnam, recently.

12. It is discovered that Trump knowingly passed AIDS to a young foreigner during anal sex.

13. Trump makes promotion of climate change issues illegal.

14. Trump makes homosexuality punishable by death (like his friend the Sultan of Brunei).

15. Trump orders the closing of all Mosques in the US.

If you voted for Trump, which of these (if any) would be a deal-breaker for you?

This is supposed to be less abstract? What could be less abstract than if the D's run a better candidate, I will vote for him. If Trump did the things in your list it would be pretty easy to run a better candidate, right?

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Area 10

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #500 on: April 08, 2019, 01:16:27 PM »
That would depend on what you value. I suspect that most Trump supporters would say that it wouldnít matter if he did any of that as long as they were personally doing ok financially. So who the Democrats put forward would be irrelevant.

PonoBill

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #501 on: April 08, 2019, 01:30:20 PM »
My first reaction to Howard Schultz is "egotistical billionaire running despite the certainty that he will help elect Donald Trump". But then I watched this, and my mind changed. This is exactly the kind of person I'd like to see as president. Whether he's a spoiler or not remains to be seen. I certainly won't vote for Trump despite being a lifelong Republican, and I REALLY don't want to vote for anyone on the far left. At least he might give me someone to waste my vote on that won't make me gag.

https://www.thirteen.org/programs/firing-line/howard-schultz-gaftom/

To Bean's point, and in response to your questions, A10, I think the answer is here. Look at the poll at the top of this page, then look at this poll--tongue in cheek as it was: https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,34555.0.html

At some point in the trajectory Schultz will get committed to running (or not). If the democrats wanted to head that off, their best tactic would be to run a centrist. They've demonstrated they can force a candidate through the primaries, might be a good time to see if they can get behind someone like Bloomberg right now. I think anyone that looks reasonable can beat Trump--he has to run on his record, which just simply couldn't be much worse unless he started WW3. But the democrats can certainly lose.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2019, 01:41:19 PM by PonoBill »
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Admin

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #502 on: April 08, 2019, 02:19:51 PM »
My first reaction to Howard Schultz is "egotistical billionaire running despite the certainty that he will help elect Donald Trump". But then I watched this, and my mind changed. This is exactly the kind of person I'd like to see as president. Whether he's a spoiler or not remains to be seen. I certainly won't vote for Trump despite being a lifelong Republican, and I REALLY don't want to vote for anyone on the far left. At least he might give me someone to waste my vote on that won't make me gag.

https://www.thirteen.org/programs/firing-line/howard-schultz-gaftom/

To Bean's point, and in response to your questions, A10, I think the answer is here. Look at the poll at the top of this page, then look at this poll--tongue in cheek as it was: https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,34555.0.html

At some point in the trajectory Schultz will get committed to running (or not). If the democrats wanted to head that off, their best tactic would be to run a centrist. They've demonstrated they can force a candidate through the primaries, might be a good time to see if they can get behind someone like Bloomberg right now. I think anyone that looks reasonable can beat Trump--he has to run on his record, which just simply couldn't be much worse unless he started WW3. But the democrats can certainly lose.

Tactically, a centrist running as a Democrat would be ideal should they be nominated.  The bulk of the far left might not find their perfect in a Biden or in a Mayor Pete (Schultz left those two off of his early list in the video) but they will vote for them over Trump.  They would also do well (or well enough) with the right of the left and the left of the right.  At least that is how I envision it.  :).  A centrist as an independent on the other hand...  The middle is tiny, the left is not going to risk it and the right see him as a lifelong Democrat.

Trump didn't recognize the Republican party but he knew he had to compete as a Republican to win.  The same is true of Howard.  If he runs as a Dem and wins, then possibly, but as an independent he would only replace Hillary in holding the thanks a lot crown.

TallDude

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #503 on: April 08, 2019, 02:41:47 PM »
Letís make my question to the Trump supporters here less abstract. Letís imagine that Trump did the following things. Which of them, if any, would lead to you actually voting for a Dem in the next election, regardless of who the Dems pick?

1. Trump brings in a new taxation system that rewards those whose families have lived longest in the US.

2. Trump brings in a system of local taxation differences where regions that make higher demands upon policing, Medicare and other government-supported resources have to pay much, much, more, in order to pay for it.

3. Trump makes all forms of sales tax illegal. Why should people be penalised for spending, right?

4. Trump sends US troops into the Middle East to defend Israeli interests, especially against Palestinians. Many Palestinians die.

5. Trump spends 70 billion dollars on his wall.

6. Trump withdraws from all strategic military alliances with existing allies.

7. Trump enters into strategic military alliances with Russia, China and North Korea.

8. Trump enters into a full-blown trade war with the European Union.

9. It is discovered that Trump paid for several abortions for women he impregnated.

10. It is discovered that Trump had sex with underage girls in Russia.

11. It is discovered that Trump had sex with underage boys when he was in Vietnam, recently.

12. It is discovered that Trump knowingly passed AIDS to a young foreigner during anal sex.

13. Trump makes promotion of climate change issues illegal.

14. Trump makes homosexuality punishable by death (like his friend the Sultan of Brunei).

15. Trump orders the closing of all Mosques in the US.

If you voted for Trump, which of these (if any) would be a deal-breaker for you?
You ever watch Live PD? This is exactly what people that are high on meth are ranting as they pound their foreheads against the protective glass in the back of a patrol car. "F" this and "F" Trump and "F" you "F'n" police. You're all going to die... Continue to pound head ;D
If a sane moderate comes in the running, I'll be interested. Any party. Just a sane moderate... Please. I don't like Trump, but I can't stand the Clinton's. Trump's abrasive and rich. The Clinton's are slimy and rich. California is covered with rich slime. Got to keep those teeth white, hair slicked back, and that face tan. All politicians are ego maniac's. I'd just like to see one that know's how to keep it in check, and in their own pants.

PonoBill

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #504 on: April 08, 2019, 02:57:31 PM »
I do think Schultz is right in saying that there are a lot of centrist republicans (and even some far-right ones who are conservative because of their moral convictions) who would vote for an independent Centrist when they would never have the stomach to vote democrat. It's a chancy calculation and a chancier bet, but these are very different times. The republicans run Trump, the democrats run Bernie or one of the leftiest seven of the current 17. That means 25 percent love Trump, 25 percent happy to vote far left, and an easy 270 electoral votes hanging in the middle. The extreme polarization creates an opportunity.

Realistically, I think the current "success" of the GOP dooms them in the long term. Fifty years ago there was room for young republicans like me who saw the party as realistic and moral (at least in comparison to the unrealistic, racist left with their "worker's unite" mentality). That's over with. Now their constituency is bitter geezers, Ayn Rand fans (all 30 of them) and skinheads or their current incarnation. Their best bet for long term viability (though completely unlikely) would be to ditch Trump and run a centrist right candidate that could say the word "morality" without everyone laughing at them.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2019, 03:03:19 PM by PonoBill »
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Area 10

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #505 on: April 08, 2019, 05:12:53 PM »
My first reaction to Howard Schultz is "egotistical billionaire running despite the certainty that he will help elect Donald Trump". But then I watched this, and my mind changed. This is exactly the kind of person I'd like to see as president. Whether he's a spoiler or not remains to be seen. I certainly won't vote for Trump despite being a lifelong Republican, and I REALLY don't want to vote for anyone on the far left. At least he might give me someone to waste my vote on that won't make me gag.

https://www.thirteen.org/programs/firing-line/howard-schultz-gaftom/

That was a fascinating link because of the similarity between the issues as Schultz was discussing them, and another one of the videos in that series, which was Tony Blair (the UKís most successful centre-left Prime Minister). He (Blair) makes the point that populism rides a wave of emnity (as he put it), but ultimately goes nowhere because it provides no solutions. He draws strong parallels between the Trump phenomenon and Brexit, and the rise of populism elsewhere. His solution is much the same as the one proposed by you here: a ďmuscularĒ centrist candidate. But what he also advocates is teaching people (from a young age, presumably) about the institutions essential to democracy, why they are important, and why a respect for the rule of law is so critical.

https://www.thirteen.org/programs/firing-line/tony-blair-hvixhi/

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spirit4earth

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #507 on: April 09, 2019, 10:16:36 AM »
https://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/ny-canada-death-medical-costs-family-father-quebec-vacation-florida-20190409-a4gzyas42vceppqudl33fgtt3y-story.html

Itís wrong that this family needed to go through this. 
What medical costs would they have incurred post-mortem?  Assuming there would be no autopsy, wouldnít they have had to pay just for transport back to Quebec?  That wouldnít be cheap, I imagine.

RideTheGlide

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #508 on: April 09, 2019, 10:34:34 AM »
https://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/ny-canada-death-medical-costs-family-father-quebec-vacation-florida-20190409-a4gzyas42vceppqudl33fgtt3y-story.html

Itís wrong that this family needed to go through this. 
What medical costs would they have incurred post-mortem?  Assuming there would be no autopsy, wouldnít they have had to pay just for transport back to Quebec?  That wouldnít be cheap, I imagine.
Probably transport to the hospital for an autopsy and/or certification of death. I wouldn't jump to the assumption of no autopsy. There are legitimate reasons for wanting to examine someone who died here after recently having been abroad, though a vacationing Canadian is highly unlikely to have some dread disease.
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pdxmike

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #509 on: April 09, 2019, 12:17:59 PM »
https://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/ny-canada-death-medical-costs-family-father-quebec-vacation-florida-20190409-a4gzyas42vceppqudl33fgtt3y-story.html

Itís wrong that this family needed to go through this. 
What medical costs would they have incurred post-mortem?  Assuming there would be no autopsy, wouldnít they have had to pay just for transport back to Quebec?  That wouldnít be cheap, I imagine.
Probably transport to the hospital for an autopsy and/or certification of death. I wouldn't jump to the assumption of no autopsy. There are legitimate reasons for wanting to examine someone who died here after recently having been abroad, though a vacationing Canadian is highly unlikely to have some dread disease.
I can understand the decision.  It's logical.  You can't look up what the costs would be.  How would you ask?--"How much would it cost to deal with a person who dies while vacationing here?  Asking for a friend".  And the answer might be off by 10x or 100x.  And once you ask, you lose the option of taking the body back to Canada yourself. 
« Last Edit: April 09, 2019, 12:26:23 PM by pdxmike »