Poll

This is a uniquely informed and diverse group to survey on any question, most definitely this one.  At this point, for whom would you cast your ballot?

Trump
19 (46.3%)
Biden
9 (22%)
Sanders
8 (19.5%)
Booker
4 (9.8%)
Klobuchar
1 (2.4%)

Total Members Voted: 41

Voting closed: March 21, 2019, 04:39:47 PM

Author Topic: 2020 Vision  (Read 45545 times)

RideTheGlide

  • Peahi Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 601
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #480 on: April 08, 2019, 07:34:13 AM »
Not all Trump supporters are racist, BUT every racist I know strongly supports Trump

Same. I was born in AL, raised in GA (still visiting AL relatives frequently) and now live in NC. The sample size for my anecdata for this observation is embarrassingly large.
2016 Naish Glide 14x30 GTW
2017 GoPlus 9'9" x 6" iSUP (generic low end all around)

eastbound

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 2858
    • View Profile
Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #481 on: April 08, 2019, 07:52:12 AM »
trump has made many overtly racist comments (among many offensive things he's said) historically and, of recent, as our president, he has continued.

Most republicans still support Trump---so his racist comments (and all the other awful lies and things he's said and done) certainly dont bother them enough to cease supporting him.

So, yeah, since most repubs still support Trump, his racism doesnt seem to matter to them---does that mean those rebups are racist? who knows? but clearly they're ok with their president, Trump, saying racist stuff.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2019, 07:54:37 AM by eastbound »
Portal Barra 8'4"
Sunova Creek 8'7"
Starboard Pro Blue Carbon  8'10"
KeNalu Mana 82, xTuf, ergoT

Admin

  • Administrator
  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 4830
    • View Profile
    • StandUpZone
    • Email
Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #482 on: April 08, 2019, 07:54:21 AM »
You don't need to be affiliated with any one party or individual to be offended by racism.

I agree with that.  That was in my last post.  It seems like you think that this shouldn't be discussed because you see it as a party view.  It may be shared by the party, but it is also a personal view and one that is not coming from from the media but from perception. 

What I am saying is that there are racists in our country, and the do belong almost entirely to one party.  This group has become emboldened and significantly more vocal under Trump. 
« Last Edit: April 08, 2019, 07:56:02 AM by Admin »

Bean

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 4028
    • View Profile
Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #483 on: April 08, 2019, 08:04:18 AM »
What I am saying is that there are racists in our country, and they do belong almost entirely to one party. 

Almost entirely huh...? ;D

Admin

  • Administrator
  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 4830
    • View Profile
    • StandUpZone
    • Email
Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #484 on: April 08, 2019, 08:16:13 AM »
Yes, almost entirely. 

https://www.vox.com/2017/8/12/16138358/charlottesville-protests-david-duke-kkk

David Duke, the former KKK grand wizard, is unambiguous about what Saturday’s alt-right and neo-Nazi rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, means to him: It’s the fulfillment of President Donald Trump’s vision for America.

“We are determined to take our country back,” Duke said from the rally, calling it a “turning point.” “We are going to fulfill the promises of Donald Trump. That’s what we believed in. That’s why we voted for Donald Trump, because he said he’s going to take our country back.”


Bean

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 4028
    • View Profile
Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #485 on: April 08, 2019, 08:24:51 AM »
Supporters of that regime (Duke, KKK Neo Nazi) are relatively few and not representative of American conservatives.

Admin

  • Administrator
  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 4830
    • View Profile
    • StandUpZone
    • Email
Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #486 on: April 08, 2019, 08:37:25 AM »
Supporters of that regime (Duke, KKK Neo Nazi) are relatively few and not representative of American conservatives.

There is a much larger group that hold racist ideologies.  Again, it is not my point that this is the entirety of the Republican party.  It is however a group that Trump is reaching out to.  When he opened his campaign with the rapists and murderers comment he was making an appeal to that larger.  This was his very first message as an official candidate. 

We won't agree on this and I am fine with that.  It is important to me that the focus be on these differences rather than letting the public argument sway to hair sniffing, Conway's husband's new tweet, or the likes. 

eastbound

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 2858
    • View Profile
Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #487 on: April 08, 2019, 08:44:59 AM »
semantic hair-splitting aside:

many trumpians are racists, and most repubs still support trump, despite all his racist commentary, and his racist supporters (guys like duke, who think trump is embracing his agenda---where trump does not dispute that at all--"good people both sides" etc)

i have some repub friends who refuse to vote for trump, under any circumstance---stuff like lying, cheating, racism, draft-dodging, friendships with duterte, putin, and kim jong, insulting handicapped, insulting gold star families, insulting john mccain, etc etc etc--they just cant stand in support of that kind of behavior from our president, or any elected official

but most repubs still support trump......
Portal Barra 8'4"
Sunova Creek 8'7"
Starboard Pro Blue Carbon  8'10"
KeNalu Mana 82, xTuf, ergoT

RideTheGlide

  • Peahi Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 601
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #488 on: April 08, 2019, 09:49:19 AM »
What I am saying is that there are racists in our country, and they do belong almost entirely to one party. 

Almost entirely huh...? ;D

There are NIMBY (Not In My Back Yard) liberals who publicly support equality but don't practice it personally. They think everyone is entitled to equal opportunities but that not everyone should be required to provide them. I am am not sure whether to call them racist or not. If you think they are racist then I will have to amend my earlier statement when I said that all the racists I know support Trump and just say that the vast majority do.
2016 Naish Glide 14x30 GTW
2017 GoPlus 9'9" x 6" iSUP (generic low end all around)

Bean

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 4028
    • View Profile
Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #489 on: April 08, 2019, 10:20:16 AM »
It is important to me that the focus be on these differences rather than letting the public argument sway to hair sniffing...

I would agree, the "hair sniffing" is total nonsense.  While I might not agree with all of Biden’s political views, I think he has handled this most recent barrage of negative press about as graciously as could be expected from anyone.  In fact, I would say that there is an endearing quality in how he has conducted himself.


PonoBill

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 22862
    • View Profile
    • Ponohouse is for sale. Great house but it's time for new adventures
Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #490 on: April 08, 2019, 10:23:55 AM »
For sheer racial hatred it's tough to beat the highly democrat east coast. I spent a lot of time in the south, and while there were no lack of bigots and deep-down racists, I never saw the general animosity that I grew up with in Massachusetts. People as a group don't change their minds, individuals grow up, and learn new things--or don't. Donald Trump is an embarrassment to conservatives, and a bellweather for the petty manipulations and self-serving of republican leaders.

The republican party isn't historically about dismantling social safety nets, raping the environment and blowing the deficit to absurd levels. In theory it's for restrained government, aiming in theory at least to do only those things that require the size and financial power government can bring--defending the country, protecting freedom and opportunity and keeping capitalism from running amok at the destructive level it can ultimately achieve. It has morphed recently into a kind of defensive meanness that probably comes from people feeling increasingly irrelevant and powerless. Unfortunately neither party has answers for that irrelevance, just distractions. It's going to get a lot worse.
Ponohouse is for sale: http://www.ponohouse.com
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

eastbound

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 2858
    • View Profile
Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #491 on: April 08, 2019, 10:25:26 AM »
and what about "family values"? used to be a key tenet of republicanism--if youre gonna be behind trump, gotta jettison your "family values" concerns--or pull off some serious spin gymnastics


joe's holding up very well------------certainly compared to cavanaugh's appallingly pathetic angry crybaby act
« Last Edit: April 08, 2019, 10:30:50 AM by eastbound »
Portal Barra 8'4"
Sunova Creek 8'7"
Starboard Pro Blue Carbon  8'10"
KeNalu Mana 82, xTuf, ergoT

Bean

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 4028
    • View Profile
Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #492 on: April 08, 2019, 10:29:42 AM »
Yes, he is.  I sincerely believe this episode could be a springboard of sorts.

And PB, you are right the GOP ain't what it used to be.  There is a lot of work to be done.

Area 10

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 3915
    • View Profile
Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #493 on: April 08, 2019, 10:42:01 AM »
Ok so there’s a majority view here, and it is that there are a cadre of Trump supporters who are outright racists, and generally pretty dangerous people. And that these people have been emboldened by Trunp, and the mainstream conservative Republican voters are largely tolerating it, for the moment, at least. So, as I asked before, at which point do you think that moderate Republicans would be so offended by Trump that they would actually vote Dem?

I think Admin made a key point earlier: Trump has had such a large cultural effect that he seems to have wiped out all memory of normal Republican leaders in the past, who e.g. tried not to tell lies (or at least, were embarrassed when they were caught doing so), tried to distance themselves from the KKK and other extremist groups, and tried reach out to voters from other parties, in order to build a centrist consensus, and to build bridges with sympathetic countries around the world (rather than insult and pull away from them), and would go to lengths to try to ensure they didn’t legitimise dictators and tyrants around the world. Remember the Bush era, and even Ronnie Ray Gun? Pinko commie liberals like us Europeans didn’t like them much. But we could see that they shared a recognition of the need for a certain set of behaviours and constraints in order to manage the fine balance that is a democracy. Trump has thrown all that out of the window. This makes this era about something else altogether: it’s a re-alignment of politics. And it is happening in lots of places, not just the US.

This can be seen very clearly in the UK. The constitutional crisis that Brecit has created has led to some strange bedfellows. Many people now to the left of centre have found themselves cheering for those on the right they used to detest. And they find themselves despising some politicians on the left more than their traditional rivals on the right. Brexit has crossed political boundaries, because it offers two particular visions for the future which are not about economics and much as they are about life philosophy: Everyone, including ardent Brexiteers (ie. those who want to leave the EU even if we don’t get a political and economic deal with them) agrees that Brexit will make the UK poorer - possibly for generations. But half the population think the price is worth it. Half do not. There is almost no middle ground: you are either strongly for Brexit, or you are strongly against. Whatever the outcome, the police and armed forces are preparing for widespread riots and civil disobedience, once this Brexit situation is decided.

And so it is with Trump: you are either strongly for him, or you are strongly against him. And most people did not vote for him, but still here is his, doing the thing that he does, causing havoc, sewing seeds of discontent and divisions between people. Just as the Brexiteers like Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson have done in the UK: similarly with no regard for the truth. They just simply say whatever will advance  their own careers. Boris Johnson, who is favourite to become our next Prime Minister, has had a career in journalism where he has been sacked twice for telling outright lies. And that is who might be out next PM!

So, what are these new divisions in politics? Well, they come a lot down to:

1. How much store you put in truth and evidence-based decision-making.
2. The degree to which you care about personal integrity.
3. The degree to which you care that every person be treated equally under the law, regardless of race, religion, sexuality etc.
4. The degree to which personal restraint impresses you.
5. The degree to which you see altruism as an admirable quality.
6. The degree to which you are open to change.
7. The degree to which you fear “outsiders”.
8. The degree to which you are a “now” person (who values short-term reward) rather than a person who is willing to work for a bigger but more distant gain.

People who fall on either side of the spectrum for these characteristics can be found both on the left and the right of the political spectrum. Accordingly, IMO the growth of populism (of which Trump is just one highly visible example) is causing a realignment along these lines rather than the almost purely economic lines that has dominated Western democracies until now.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2019, 11:19:40 AM by Area 10 »

SUP Leave

  • Sunset Status
  • ****
  • Posts: 417
    • View Profile
Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #494 on: April 08, 2019, 11:24:15 AM »
A10 in your first paragraph you ask the question: So, as I asked before, at which point do you think that moderate Republicans be so offended by Trump that they would actually vote Dem and the answer is simple and plain. As soon as the D's run out a moderate politician for president. There are plenty of blue collar voters that will make the switch. It could be so easy. Thing is I have a feeling that the Ds are going to go more left of Hillary because they think she was not progressive enough, but the fact is she was a bad candidate and ran a bad campaign. How do you lose to Trump? Making something that could be easy unattainable.

Almost all of my friends are like me right of center, and own small businesses. I also know that most 'real people' are not strongly for Trump, but are strongly for themselves and their individual rights. There is nothing that I believe more in than the power of an individual to make their way in this country and so my votes nearly always follow that line. Maybe I will age into different thought patterns.

The thing about politicians is that I mistrust them immediately, no matter their political view. Why would anyone go into politics in this day and age without having a screw loose? With Trump everyone knew he was scum before he ever ran, it came baked into the cake. He occasionally pretends he is something he is not, but only the MAGA people believe any of it. While the media makes it look like there are MAGA people everywhere, I don't know any. The results of this thread, follow along what I kind of think pervades nationally.

Make paddleboarding great again!