Poll

This is a uniquely informed and diverse group to survey on any question, most definitely this one.  At this point, for whom would you cast your ballot?

Trump
19 (46.3%)
Biden
9 (22%)
Sanders
8 (19.5%)
Booker
4 (9.8%)
Klobuchar
1 (2.4%)

Total Members Voted: 41

Voting closed: March 21, 2019, 04:39:47 PM

Author Topic: 2020 Vision  (Read 123980 times)

eastbound

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 2995
    • View Profile
Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #405 on: April 03, 2019, 02:40:14 PM »
china--as they are catching up to us in biomed, and are the unarguable world leader in genetic research--they run crispr's like we run mcdonald's fry machines

and breakthroughs are great, but need to be available to others than the rich

none of us will get near the level of care Mick will pay cash for

Portal Barra 8'4"
Sunova Creek 8'7"
Starboard Pro Blue Carbon  8'10"
KeNalu Mana 82, xTuf, ergoT

iopsailor

  • Rincon Status
  • ***
  • Posts: 126
    • View Profile
Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #406 on: April 03, 2019, 03:23:43 PM »
Quote from: eastbound link=topic=34512.msg396406#msg396406 date=1554327614
none of us will get near the level of care Mick will pay cash for
[/quote

I don’t know about that.  Remember when David Letterman brought the docs who did his heart surgery on the show?   They were the same docs who operated on my b-in-law ( who turned 95 this year) . I believe he was on Medicare at the time.

Bean

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 4211
    • View Profile
Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #407 on: April 03, 2019, 04:29:38 PM »
china--as they are catching up to us in biomed

Missing my point and making it, in the same breath...Yes China, like the rest of the world are catching up.  Maybe they can set the bench marks for us to follow once we adopt an NHS model.


PonoBill

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 25864
    • View Profile
Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #408 on: April 03, 2019, 06:50:33 PM »
...like the poor guy who passed out after a flu shot, got in an ambulance and owed 20k (and has insurance!)---mick doesnt sweat that kinda stuff!

I wouldn't disagree with you on any of your fine examples, but my point was simply, where would healthcare be today without the capitalist driven healthcare industry in the US?   Who would set the standard?

The obvious answer is--someone else. The USA lost the edge in medical tech a few years ago--it's simply become too expensive to do research in the USA, and the healthcare system is the reason why. Japan clearly leads today from a technology standpoint. I researched this in-depth a few years ago as part of my retirement book. At that time most experts put the USA in second place, South Korea third, China fourth, then a few other countries I don't remember, then England and Canada. From a Biotech standpoint, USA doctors and researchers led the way two years ago, with the most published results, but China was close behind and coming up fast. Given the shape of the curve in 2017 I'd assume they passed USA briskly and haven't looked back. That could only be a surprise if you haven't been paying attention. Pick up any medical device you are using and read the label. Made in the USA? Well, maybe Puerto Rico, but generally--China or South Korea. Fucking WD40 is made in China now. Tech isn't the same as care or results. In terms of the general term "care" the USA ranked 19th. In terms of results the USA ranked 37th.

MAGA? Really? You'd have to be blind, deaf and dumb. Especially dumb. Anyone celebrating the fact that the Democrats are working hard at losing the next election is cheering for an assemblage of self-interested scum dismantling a once-great nation that was a light to the world. The Democrats wouldn't do much better, the far left makes me puke, but at least the slime level would recede a bit.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

Rider

  • Rincon Status
  • ***
  • Posts: 213
    • View Profile
Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #409 on: April 03, 2019, 07:15:09 PM »
Bill, chill man. It’s not as bad as that. Maui can drive a person crazy. I get that. We ended up on the one month plan but had to leave after three weaks. A couple weeks back in the Gorge, and you will be fine. It’s not like you don’t have projects. You seem to name them all. Oh.....and foiling....it’s all good....

Bean

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 4211
    • View Profile
Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #410 on: April 03, 2019, 08:08:09 PM »
To be clear, I was not talking about medical technology and or where medical devices are mfg. 

eastbound

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 2995
    • View Profile
Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #411 on: April 04, 2019, 02:51:53 AM »
you talkin' bedside manner??

ok, so nuffa of the 20 questions,

pls explain what are you talking about
« Last Edit: April 04, 2019, 02:58:12 AM by eastbound »
Portal Barra 8'4"
Sunova Creek 8'7"
Starboard Pro Blue Carbon  8'10"
KeNalu Mana 82, xTuf, ergoT

eastbound

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 2995
    • View Profile
Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #412 on: April 04, 2019, 02:56:27 AM »
oh--exonerated??---no collusion??

lol

here comes the first of it:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/limited-information-barr-has-shared-about-russia-investigation-frustrated-some-on-muellers-team/2019/04/03/c98e8a02-567a-11e9-814f-e2f46684196e_story.html?utm_term=.257b0478d07b

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/03/us/politics/william-barr-mueller-report.html

"But members of Mueller’s team have complained to close associates that the evidence they gathered on obstruction was alarming and significant."

what a cheap criminal con this pathetic presidency is

« Last Edit: April 04, 2019, 03:11:52 AM by eastbound »
Portal Barra 8'4"
Sunova Creek 8'7"
Starboard Pro Blue Carbon  8'10"
KeNalu Mana 82, xTuf, ergoT

eastbound

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 2995
    • View Profile
Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #413 on: April 04, 2019, 03:22:14 AM »
"I don’t know about that.  Remember when David Letterman brought the docs who did his heart surgery on the show?   They were the same docs who operated on my b-in-law ( who turned 95 this year) . I believe he was on Medicare at the time."

poor phrasing on my part: i shd have qualified as re medicare--medicare patients do have decent choice-and at 95 your bro in law certainly has medicare--my dad had his knee replaced at HSS, one of the best-reputed ortho surgery centers in the country---he's on medicare-not one shred of paperwork--my private for-profit insurance has no contract with HSS---i cant admit there for any surgery without putting up a 100k deposit, where i will then charged 2-5 times what medicare pays!!  and they'll just tap my money, and send me unintelligible bills!!!

"choice"--this is newspeak for privateers coming for your money--you hear the word "choice", turn your brain on hi
Portal Barra 8'4"
Sunova Creek 8'7"
Starboard Pro Blue Carbon  8'10"
KeNalu Mana 82, xTuf, ergoT

Admin

  • Administrator
  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 6443
    • View Profile
    • StandUpZone
    • Email
Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #414 on: April 04, 2019, 03:38:17 AM »
oh--exonerated??---no collusion??

lol

here comes the first of it:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/limited-information-barr-has-shared-about-russia-investigation-frustrated-some-on-muellers-team/2019/04/03/c98e8a02-567a-11e9-814f-e2f46684196e_story.html?utm_term=.257b0478d07b

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/03/us/politics/william-barr-mueller-report.html

"But members of Mueller’s team have complained to close associates that the evidence they gathered on obstruction was alarming and significant."

what a cheap criminal con this pathetic presidency is

The interesting part is the obstruction charge.  I regards to obstruction, Barr wrote, "the evidence does not establish that the President was involved in an underlying crime related to Russian election interference,"  He, and other republicans are misleadingly using this as a basis for no obstruction.  Essentially their argument goes, no provable election interference from the president means no collusion.  Of course that is nonsense.

18 U.S.C. § 1503 defines "obstruction of justice" as an act that "corruptly or by threats or force, or by any threatening letter or communication, influences, obstructs, or impedes, or endeavors to influence, obstruct, or impede, the due administration of justice."

You can obstruct justice that results in no eventual crime.  This one of course resulted in numerous crimes and convictions, and a determination that Russia definitely interfered in the election.  All of these being a poor reflection on this president.  Not to mention that it uncovered affairs, more lies, shady legal dealings etc.  He was certainly very strongly motivated not to have this investigation.  It will be interesting to see the pro/con evidence on that portion. 
« Last Edit: April 04, 2019, 03:40:30 AM by Admin »

Bean

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 4211
    • View Profile
Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #415 on: April 04, 2019, 06:19:49 AM »
...pls explain what are you talking about

Imagine where the various national healthcare systems of the world would be today if not for the high benchmarks set by the capitalist based healthcare system of the US.

While the fact that Sir Jagger has chosen a doctor and facility in the US is somewhat anectodal, it speaks volumes about the current state of world healthcare.

spirit4earth

  • Peahi Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 875
    • View Profile
Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #416 on: April 04, 2019, 06:42:03 AM »
Yes. It is a reasonably well-established psychological principle that people are more motivated to avoid losing something they already have than they will be to gain something that they don’t yet have. This may in part explain why older folks are apparently more motivated to vote: they may have more to lose (in material terms) than to gain, whereas younger folk in the main will have more to gain than to lose.

Older folk are also simply a lot more organised, and their lives tend to more regular in terms of scheduling.
Older folks also vote with their dollars and their health.
So Mick needs a new heart valve, he chooses to have it done here in the U.S. as opposed to his native G.B.

Yes, clearly Mick has unlimited choice in where to have surgery, but what if he didn't?   What if the US had an NHS model like the UK?  Who would be the world standard-setter in healthcare?

the only americans who have any choice in their healthcare are the very rich--and yes, we have best care in the world for our wealthy--but the data on overall quality of care and cost for the avg joe in the us vs that of the average bloke in europe clearly favors the care in europe

often the very rich from around the globe come to the states for complex care--a guy worth 400mln could care less about paying 300k full retail for a heart valve fix--so they come to the US and choose the best care available and throw what is chump change for them, at the best facility for the procedure

avg joe in the US??--no such luck --he goes to whatever hospital his carrier has contract with and tough luck if that facility sux-(if he has "insurance" at all, that is)--choose? better have beaucoup bux, or be ready to join the ranks of those who file for personal bankruptcy, some 70% of whom are there bc of medical event costs

hell, a good number of the medically bankrupted get there, even tho they have insurance---overwhelmed by coverage caps deductibles and out of pocket costs--yep avg joe's WITH health insurance

it's great to be rich in the usa, esp re medical care--so much so that rich people from other countries come here for the coveted precious care than can be bought here----less than rich, working class??? not the case at all

so yeah mick, a guy worth 400mm, who needs a sensitive med procedure, is drawn to US for that, since money rules quality of med care here. makes sense.

if i had 400mm i would ignore my crappy med insurance and seek care based on quality only, without the paranoia about sneaky hidden costs that will end up coming out of my pocket--

like the poor guy who passed out after a flu shot, got in an ambulance and owed 20k (and has insurance!)---mick doesnt sweat that kinda stuff!

Amen to this.  I have serious issues that can’t be addressed because I don’t have health insurance.  I’ll just have to wait until I need an ER visit, and then deal with the consequences.

Area 10

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 4057
    • View Profile
Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #417 on: April 04, 2019, 06:58:38 AM »
...pls explain what are you talking about

Imagine where the various national healthcare systems of the world would be today if not for the high benchmarks set by the capitalist based healthcare system of the US.

While the fact that Sir Jagger has chosen a doctor and facility in the US is somewhat anectodal, it speaks volumes about the current state of world healthcare.
The decision for Mick Jagger as to where he was treated may have been made more on clinical grounds than any other. It is not advisable to be hopping on transatlantic flights with a heart condition. Indeed, he may have had specific medical advice against it, and there would be insurance issues also.

You can get some of the very best care in the world in the UK free of charge. The hospital where I do a lot of research is one of the very best in the world, by any standard. You can receive the best treatment in the world there, at the hands of the some of the very best surgeons, and if you are a UK citizen it will be completely FREE at all stages. No paperwork either.

I imagine that if Mick had been in the UK when his heart problem was detected, he’d be receiving treatment in the UK right now. Or France if he was in France, or Germany if he was in Germany etc. And if he’d been in France and Germany he’d have either got it free as well, or if he went private (almost certain, with his need for privacy etc), he’s pay a LOT less than he’s paying now no doubt in the US, and would have a truly world-class team around him.

But I shouldn’t have to say this. We’ve done this dance a thousand times on this forum. You guys are getting ripped off for your healthcare, OK? And part of the reason is because as soon as anyone suggests a national health service you all start catastrophising about reds under the bed, and the end of the free world, just like you do when gun control is mentioned. So that’s fine. Have your health system, and pay through the nose for stuff you don’t need, and then can’t afford the stuff you do. And have no gun controls and have your kids shot dead in their classrooms. That’s the beauty of rampant capitalism: You get to choose your risks, and if you want to make decisions against your own interests then there will instantly be someone there at your shoulder willing to profit from it, with glee, and tell you that it’s the only sane choice, and that anything else is just un-American commie nonsense.

So go out now and vote for a demagogue. Oh, sorry: you already did.

Not that the UK is any better state right now. There’s some seriously shady stuff happening right now with secret and well-funded social media campaigns trying to destabilise our country and unstall a demagogue of our own (Boris Johnson looks like the most likely), who can then be controlled by the unelected Masters of the Universe, free from pesky interference from the European Parliament laws on protection of workers rights, the environment, etc. Soon, we will have our own Trump. And then he will privatise our NHS and we’ll be in exactly the same situation as you.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/03/grassroots-facebook-brexit-ads-secretly-run-by-staff-of-lynton-crosby-firm

Bean

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 4211
    • View Profile
Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #418 on: April 04, 2019, 07:39:29 AM »
A-10, you carry the weight of the world on your shoulders...

So, if Mick happened to have been in the Philippines, he would have the surgery there?  (well, they do have the capability) 
 
More than 10 percent of Brits find the need to also have private insurance to cover care provided outside the tax-funded NHS system.  That's an unacceptable conflict of interest. 

Area 10

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 4057
    • View Profile
Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #419 on: April 04, 2019, 11:13:31 AM »
A-10, you carry the weight of the world on your shoulders...

So, if Mick happened to have been in the Philippines, he would have the surgery there?  (well, they do have the capability) 
 
More than 10 percent of Brits find the need to also have private insurance to cover care provided outside the tax-funded NHS system.  That's an unacceptable conflict of interest.
We have a mixed model system, so you can pay for stuff if you want to, and some things that you can pay for privately you wouldn’t get on the NHS because it’s not deemed sufficiently of clinical need for the taxpayer to pay for you (eg. some forms of cosmetic surgery).

Some doctors work only privately. Quite a few do a bit of private and a bit of NHS. Most only do NHS. It’s up to them. Most doctors don’t go into it to get rich.

There is indeed a tension between private healthcare and the NHS. It is not a very happy marriage. But it’s a compromise we’ve arranged at. Quite a few services (eg. cleaning, maintenance etc) are contracted out to private companies by the NHS. Amongst staff there is the widespread opinion that service gets worse and costs go up when this happens. It’s great in theory, but in practice the private companies find ways to game the system and so screw money out of the poor taxpayer to line their shareholders’ pockets.

No system is perfect. But I’d far rather have ours than yours. No wonder you guys are so angry. For you, being poor can be a life and death matter. But here, if you fall on hard times you can still be seen by the same world-class docs as just operated on Mick Jagger, whose heart is probably giving out because of nonstop sex with some beautiful fit female half his age :)

 


SimplePortal 2.3.7 © 2008-2024, SimplePortal