2020 Vision

[Admin]

I have learned what your kryptonite is...

This is my workstation:

Good Lord.

[eastbound]

the problem is both government and business leaders.

government passes immigration laws that it enforces selectively, at behest of business, which benefits in ways already explained--all well-lubed by lobbie$t$, dc law firms etc.

[spirit4earth]

The businesses/employees are the culprits as far as not giving illegal immigrants the safeguards that citizens have.  But as illegals, it’s a given that they’re making a more direct trade:  their labor for x amount of dollars.  They are not given the protections that citizens have.  Both the employees and the government are at fault.  The gov could crack down on these employers, but then what?  No citizens would work in some of those places for such a low wage.
I think the workers...all workers...should be given the protection of OSHA, overtime laws, etc, without risk of deportation.  I don’t see how that could work, though.
I guess my thought is that Americans are not going to work those dangerous, shitty jobs for minimum wage, so why not give the people who ARE willing to do so the full protection of US employment laws, as well as let them reap the benefits of their contributions to social security.

[Area 10]

Yes, well, that would be the civilised thing to do. But... err... shedloads of people voted for Trump and are going to vote for him again. The less civilised he gets, the more they seem to like it. They’ll be cheering him on even as he points the cannons at them. There’s clearly a lot of fear and anger out there.

The parallels with the Brexit-voters in the UK is remarkable. It would be exactly the same people who support Trump who would vote for Brexit, and for very similar reasons. Even many of those that stand to lose their jobs because of Brexit still support it, because of fantasy notions of “taking back control” and “gaining sovereignty”. If you ask them what they actually want or expect out of Brexit in terms of specifics they usually can’t say. It’s just a vote made purely with the heart, and if the heart says cut off your nose to spite your face, then it must be right... a kind of directionless venting of spleen. (It’s funny, because there are actually perfectly good reasons for being very sceptical about the European project. But none of those reasons are the ones you hear. But that may be where the analogy with Trump breaks down.)

[RideTheGlide]

Touched on earlier - lots of jobs going away that won't come back:

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/28/record-number-of-robots-were-put-to-work-in-north-america-in-2018.html

A little tidbit at the end:
Meanwhile, a 2018 report from the International Labour Organization concluded that robotization in developed countries negatively affects employment in emerging countries.

Not all the cheap labor being replaced is local.

[PonoBill]

The automation of work issue is not so much robots as it is computers. We've been replacing physical labor with machines for 200+ years, and it's generated more jobs than it replaced. But now the cognitive part of work is being replaced, and other than easy portability and versatility, there isn't a place to hide. All work sectors are vulnerable. 

The nature of labor has changed dramatically already. There are far fewer bullshit jobs, except in government. Traditional management is probably going to collapse suddenly. Who needs heirarchy when you can track everything everyone does, automatically? That's one big reason why investing in a college degree or advanced education requires more care and attention today.

[Admin]

Right.  If you were to listen to the news you would think that manufacturing output has tanked in the US.  Not so.  We produce more than twice as much as we did in the 80's.  It takes 20% less people to do it.  Think how staggering that is.   That is just one sector.  There is no industry that is not effected.  This factor dwarfs immigration in terms of jobs/wages. 

 

Also worth keeping in mind what immigration does for our country.

[Area 10]

We'll be fighting in the streets
With our children at our feet
And the morals that they worship will be gone
And the men who spurred us on
Sit in judgement of all wrong
They decide and the shotgun sings the song

I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again

The change, it had to come
We knew it all along
We were liberated from the fold, that's all
And the world looks just the same
And history ain't changed
'Cause the banners, they are flown in the next war

I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again
No, no!

I'll move myself and my family aside
If we happen to be left half alive
I'll get all my papers and smile at the sky
Though I know that the hypnotized never lie
Do ya?

There's nothing in the streets
Looks any different to me
And the slogans are replaced, by-the-bye
And the parting on the left
Are now parting on the right
And the beards have all grown longer overnight

I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again
Don't get fooled again
No, no!

Meet the new boss
Same as the old boss

https://youtu.be/WX_96uKZ7yQ

[PonoBill]

Right.  If you were to listen to the news you would think that manufacturing output has tanked in the US.  Not so.  We produce more than twice as much as we did in the 80's.  It takes 20% less people to do it.  Think how staggering that is.   That is just one sector.  There is no industry that is not effected.  This factor dwarfs immigration in terms of jobs/wages. 

I have a certain level of cynicism about how people think about the world around them, we're really all kind of stupid. We're only capable collectively. How anyone could think immigration is a significant problem is simply amazing. That curve isn't going to slow down, it's going to drastically climb. The time period for the graph covers the 23 years BEFORE cognitive labor replacement really got rolling. The middle class in the USA isn't being wiped out by immigration, it's dying because the jobs that supported it are irrelevant.

[SUP Leave]

Illegal immigration is just a political football. Neither side wants it solved, because it is such an easy campaign issue. Complete immigration reform could be pretty easy. You have a job, you get to be legal (show two months pay stubs for citizenship?). If you get here and don't have a job, get a job - show 2 months pay stub. The problem is enforcement on the business side, and it has do be done through competition. I.e. rat out your competition if they are hiring illegals and you are following the law. We HAVE to let people come here to work, it is a massive portion of the American economy. Having people come here to take advantage of the social safety net is solved by getting more people to work.

Take "the wall" for example. Ignore the cost per foot (which is ridiculous, even for government work), but the idea itself is sound. The R's are telling us that it is for safety of Americans (utilizing fear), the D's are telling us the wall is inhumane (making sure the R's look like heartless SOBs).

It is just a wall. There is already lots of wall, and yet we it has become this divisive political symbol. In my opinion, the wall does not really create much more safety for Americans (a negligible percentage increase), but a massive safety increase for illegal immigrants by coordinating their entry points and eliminating dangerous desert crossings run by criminals.

[RideTheGlide]

Illegal immigration is just a political football. Neither side wants it solved, because it is such an easy campaign issue. Complete immigration reform could be pretty easy. You have a job, you get to be legal (show two months pay stubs for citizenship?). If you get here and don't have a job, get a job - show 2 months pay stub. The problem is enforcement on the business side, and it has do be done through competition. I.e. rat out your competition if they are hiring illegals and you are following the law. We HAVE to let people come here to work, it is a massive portion of the American economy. Having people come here to take advantage of the social safety net is solved by getting more people to work.

Take "the wall" for example. Ignore the cost per foot (which is ridiculous, even for government work), but the idea itself is sound. The R's are telling us that it is for safety of Americans (utilizing fear), the D's are telling us the wall is inhumane (making sure the R's look like heartless SOBs).

It is just a wall. There is already lots of wall, and yet we it has become this divisive political symbol. In my opinion, the wall does not really create much more safety for Americans (a negligible percentage increase), but a massive safety increase for illegal immigrants by coordinating their entry points and eliminating dangerous desert crossings run by criminals.

Actually, the DEMs and many REPs are saying that the wall really won't help much at all and it is a giant waste of money. That's the primary argument against it.

[SUP Leave]

Sure, they both think the money could be better wasted elsewhere.

[RideTheGlide]

Sure, they both think the money could be better wasted elsewhere.

There is a lot of other waste, but in this case the argument is against increasing the budget (and therefore the deficit and therefore the debt) by the amount of money he wants for the wall and not spending this particular sum of money we don't have at all.

[mrbig]

A10, Moonie gone, Ox gone. Thanks for posting one of my favorites!

Perhaps Karl Marx had a point in his statement that Capitalism is the Root of All Evil!

[iopsailor]

I think it was Marx that said “under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it’s just the opposite” but it probably wasn’t Karl