2020 Vision

[Rider]

Quick, I am not disputing anything. I am just saying you’re full of Bull Shit. That story doesen’t pass the smell test. You can do better! I have faith in you.

[Califoilia]

If immigration was controlled, the wage would be higher than the $7.25 you speak of.

What do you base this on? Businesses wouldn't be greedy if we had tighter controls on immigration? How does that work?

Shortage or workers drives up the labor price.  It's not out of generosity that a higher wage is paid.  Basic economics.

You don't see the problem with this reasoning? 

a) You stated that illegals taking the low waged jobs are the reason poor people are out of work.
b) Because of the illegals taking these low skilled jobs employers are keeping wages low.
c) If we get rid of the illegals, there will be a labor shortage thus driving up wages.

But I thought you said if we get rid of all the illegals, all of the unemployed poor now on state assistance will be able to refill all of those vacated jobs...meaning there won't be a labor shortage, and therefore, no increase in wages.

Or are you saying that before the unemployed poor will go back to work is only if/when employers raise wages to lure them back because they don't have another labor pool to turn to instead...but until then, they'll stay unemployed and on state assistance?

What am I missing?

[Quickbeam]

Quick, I am not disputing anything. I am just saying you’re full of Bull Shit. That story doesen’t pass the smell test. You can do better! I have faith in you.

You know Rider, I really couldn’t care less what you believe or don’t believe. I relayed a story as it was told to me. You don’t believe me? Big deal. That’s up to you. I don’t see what about the story you find so hard to believe, and you know what? I really don’t want to know.

[pdxmike]

Quick, I am not disputing anything. I am just saying you’re full of Bull Shit. That story doesen’t pass the smell test. You can do better! I have faith in you.

You know Rider, I really couldn’t care less what you believe or don’t believe. I relayed a story as it was told to me. You don’t believe me? Big deal. That’s up to you. I don’t see what about the story you find so hard to believe, and you know what? I really don’t want to know.

I found it totally believable.  I think a common fear of people as they come closer to facing death is putting their children or spouses in the horrible position of a) having to choose between prolonging their life but at the cost of financial disaster, or b) avoiding the financial disaster but at the cost of facing eternal guilt over letting them die. 

A parent could work decades to amass an estate of several hundred thousand dollars, knowing that if they die, their spouse or children will have some financial security, but also knowing that that amount of money could evaporate to pay for medical treatment during the last few days of their lives.

I've read accounts of people who've chosen assisted suicide who've said that was a specific major reason for choosing that route.  I also believe people have a "will to live" and to some extent, in at least some situations, will choose to die rather than continue fighting to live.  And I am sure the fear of seeing their estates go towards medical bills, even after they may lost awareness or control, factors in to their choice to live or let go.

[Area 10]

Quick, I am not disputing anything. I am just saying you’re full of Bull Shit. That story doesen’t pass the smell test. You can do better! I have faith in you.

The moment you start throwing around insults like this, you have lost the argument.

People make a range of choices when faced with a life-threatening illness. One of those choices often relates to quality of life. If people perceive that the choice is between a shorter period of life with a higher quality of life and a longer period of life but a lower quality of life over that time, with an inevitable death anyway, it is not uncommon for people to choose to save themselves and their family a slow and painful (both physically and emotionally) route and go quickly. This might especially be the case where prolonging life would impact financially upon family members long after their death.

Your comments to Quickbeam suggest to me that you can’t imagine anyone being decent or brave enough to take the “short but sweet” route, when a financial burden is an important deciding factor. From this, I infer that you don’t know anyone with those qualities, and presumably that you don’t have them yourself. That’s a shame, and you have my sympathy. Perhaps when push came to shove, you or your family/friends might surprise themselves. Or perhaps you just don’t have that much experience of what people do when faced with death. It’s funny, you know, some people really do, when faced with death, behave in the most incredibly brave and noble way. It’s quite inspiring. When the manner of your death is the only choice you have, people often put family and friends first in their decision-making - even those, like you, who might have seemed needlessly confrontational and aggressive during the living years.

[Bean]

A-10, am I right in assuming that you (also) have Aspergers?

[Area 10]

A-10, am I right in assuming that you (also) have Aspergers?

Nope. But I can see where you may have got that idea from (I do know a bit about AS).

If you are AS, I’d offer the advice, which, actually, you need a lot less than some here, that the last way a person is going to convince anyone to see things from their viewpoint is to hurl insults at them.

[Bean]

That's precisely my point A-10, I think we need to reel back the civility just a bit.

[RideTheGlide]

A-10, am I right in assuming that you (also) have Aspergers?

Nope. But I can see where you may have got that idea from (I do know a bit about AS).

If you are AS, I’d offer the advice, which, actually, you need a lot less than some here, that the last way a person is going to convince anyone to see things from their viewpoint is to hurl insults at them.

All CAPS with frequent misspellings and puzzling word choices is far more effective (not that I am making fun of any particular goverment official  ).

[Area 10]

That's precisely my point A-10, I think we need to reel back the civility just a bit.

Some people are repeat offenders who perhaps require reminding more frequently than others.

I will refer you to this pleasant comment from a few pages earlier:

Earth to A10 & RTG. Nobody gives a fuck what you think. That is all.....

[mrbig]

Buddha sez to ask yourself the following question before saying anything..

Is it true, is it necessary, and is it kind?

If not, button it up (sorry Guatama 😎) !

[jpeter]

If immigration was controlled, the wage would be higher than the $7.25 you speak of.

What do you base this on? Businesses wouldn't be greedy if we had tighter controls on immigration? How does that work?

Shortage or workers drives up the labor price.  It's not out of generosity that a higher wage is paid.  Basic economics.

You don't see the problem with this reasoning? 

a) You stated that illegals taking the low waged jobs are the reason poor people are out of work.
b) Because of the illegals taking these low skilled jobs employers are keeping wages low.
c) If we get rid of the illegals, there will be a labor shortage thus driving up wages.

But I thought you said if we get rid of all the illegals, all of the unemployed poor now on state assistance will be able to refill all of those vacated jobs...meaning there won't be a labor shortage, and therefore, no increase in wages.

Or are you saying that before the unemployed poor will go back to work is only if/when employers raise wages to lure them back because they don't have another labor pool to turn to instead...but until then, they'll stay unemployed and on state assistance?

What am I missing?

I stand by my general statement that increased immigration results in depressed wages.  A shortage of workers increases wages.  This is why minimum wage is earned by few people in a good economy.

specific plan:
- increase $$$ penalty for hiring illegal aliens.
- make it more difficult to collect bennies for citizens and illegals
- path to citizenship for some employed illegals,  maybe partner with businesses
- Some illegals will leave on their own accord with no work or bennies.
- more citizens re-enter or enter the workforce.

Both parties had been against illegal immigration until just recently.  But actually this was just lip service.  Both parties actually like it for the cheap labor.  Now we have this open border stuff where some politicians are happy to take in folks who might vote for them.   

JP

[Admin]

Fair competition is what drives productivity and ingenuity.  We have always been an immigrant nation.  Illegal immigration has been down for 11 years by all reliable metrics.  Where is the increase in wages?  Let's just call it self-rationalized fear of change.  Change in the color of our country, change in the replacement of human jobs by automation, change in our condiments. 

[RideTheGlide]

That's precisely my point A-10, I think we need to reel back the civility just a bit.

Some people are repeat offenders who perhaps require reminding more frequently than others.

I will refer you to this pleasant comment from a few pages earlier:

Earth to A10 & RTG. Nobody gives a fuck what you think. That is all.....

I pretty much ignored it. It was such a clever comeback that I figured I would only embarrass myself if I tried to surpass it.

[Area 10]

Fair competition is what drives productivity and ingenuity.  We have always been an immigrant nation.  Illegal immigration has been down for 11 years by all reliable metrics.  Where is the increase in wages?  Let's just call it self-rationalized fear of change.  Change in the color of our country, change in the replacement of human jobs by automation, change in our condiments.

That’s a good argument.