Poll

This is a uniquely informed and diverse group to survey on any question, most definitely this one.  At this point, for whom would you cast your ballot?

Trump
19 (46.3%)
Biden
9 (22%)
Sanders
8 (19.5%)
Booker
4 (9.8%)
Klobuchar
1 (2.4%)

Total Members Voted: 41

Voting closed: March 21, 2019, 04:39:47 PM

Author Topic: 2020 Vision  (Read 123966 times)

PonoBill

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #225 on: March 06, 2019, 10:10:52 AM »
I think he's delusional. And probably irrelevant to either side. I can't imagine many people voting for him, but then again, I can't imagine people voting for Trump. But hey, we could run a poll. I think I misspelled some names, but who cares.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2019, 10:15:11 AM by PonoBill »
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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #226 on: March 06, 2019, 10:25:50 AM »
Good Stuff.

I feel your pain eastbound, buying insurance for a small company is shit in the current market. In WA we have two basic choices. It is definitely not a free market system. The first step to getting one would be elimination of the employer mandate. I would love to give my staff the extra $650-$850 a month in cash to choose the insurance they like best, and that fits their family best.

I get your point Ponobill, but saying "healthcare is a right" makes my point fundamentally true. It is saying I have a right to a doctor's time. The terminology is likely the weakness.  My concern with government run healthcare or even single payer is: I believe that more innovation and efficiency comes from an open market than it does from government workers doing it for the greater good.

Here is a Forbes article that states the United States produces about 40% of the worlds medical innovations. But it doesn't say whether or not it is because we are trying to make more money, or are doing it for the greater good. My opinion on human nature remains unchanged for the record.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/matthewherper/2011/03/23/the-most-innovative-countries-in-biology-and-medicine/#4a101f8f1a71

Maybe i'm a cynical asshole, but say you are a urologist: You can get paid by the government $600 for every vasectomy. So you set up to perform vasectomies, 2 per hour, every day. There is a laser system that is available out there for $350,000 that will do vasectomies at 10 minutes on center with no incisions. If you are in the private market you can charge $2,000 cash for each one with a little flashy marketing and drive to work in a yacht (after you pay off the gear)! Without this option does the vasectomy laser machine ever get built and tested?

I worked for the government for 4 years, and the amount of waste, laziness, entitlement, and stupidity has soured me - probably for life.

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Area 10

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #227 on: March 06, 2019, 10:40:45 AM »
I could schedule a cataract procedure for next week, while somone under the NHS would be bumping into the furniture for 3 months or possibly more.

Here is a serious question for you A-10.  Hypothetically, if one of your lawmakers needed a hip replacement would they be subject to the waiting list?  Would they simply go private?
Priority is given according to need, and in any case the problem would have been picked up long before it got to that stage. Plus, if you want to, you could go private. You could pay just for that procedure as a one-off, or you can have a healthcare plan - which are cheaper here than in the US because they have to work harder for our business. But with complex procedures most people use the NHS because the doctors and aftercare are better. And it’s free. Everyone knows that if you are a doctor, the more private work you do, the more likely you are to be a money-grabbing charlatan who will bill for anything that you can regardless of whether it is necessary. That’s just what happens when you make healthcare a business: It’s not rocket surgery to appreciate that :) Our doctors do not go into medicine to get rich.

Bean

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #228 on: March 06, 2019, 10:53:59 AM »
Imagine what "world wide" healthcare might look like today if the US had adopted a "socialized" model, say 30 years ago?

Where would the innovation that we have seen in healthcare over the last 30 years come from?  Ok now, do your own research...

 

eastbound

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #229 on: March 06, 2019, 11:19:05 AM »
no knowledge on this, but you imply:

that most medical breakthroughs of the last 30 years have come out of USA

that these breakthroughs would not have happened in the US or anywhere had USA had other than a for-profit health insurance system

are these your points? and what makes you think this is true?

before i go off researching

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Bean

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #230 on: March 06, 2019, 11:46:01 AM »
Just food for thought. 

But, I'm thinking more along the lines of medical breakthrough, not just improving a process (ie. assembly line PRK, USSR '70's). 

It's tricky to research, for instance Pfizer moved some research to Shanghai a few years ago but the bulk of the work is still very much U.S. centered.

Area 10

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #231 on: March 06, 2019, 11:51:43 AM »
Imagine what "world wide" healthcare might look like today if the US had adopted a "socialized" model, say 30 years ago?

Where would the innovation that we have seen in healthcare over the last 30 years come from?  Ok now, do your own research...
Most of the innovations probably start in universities not the companies. The companies probably take it to market but that’s not the same as saying that the innovations come from them.

This has got nothing to do with “socialism” btw. That’s just a bogeyman word that is being used to scare you off.  What we are talking about is NON-PROFIT healthcare. In countries which have nationalised non-profit healthcare systems, people both on the left and right of the political spectrum tend overwhelmingly to support it. So you should not associate it with one political philosophy. The problems you face with your system is because of PROFITEERING. The obvious solution therefore is to turn towards a NON-PROFIT model. But I think you have been so indoctrinated into believing the false assumptions that prop up your system that you have trouble seeing beyond it.

For something to change, something has to change.

PonoBill

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #232 on: March 06, 2019, 11:53:10 AM »
The source of medical breakthroughs and research has virtually nothing to do with healthcare and individual practitioners. You have to do better than that Bean, I can tell from your posts that you're a careful thinker. Breakthroughs come from university research and mega-corporations doing either separate research or implementing discoveries. That is unlikely to change however healthcare is funded. Funny that you bring that up, it's one of the factors that are NOT included in per capita cost of healthcare, and one of the reasons I think the per capita cost of healthcare is understated and the relevance of physician's salaries even at less than ten percent is overstated.

The overwhelming majority of medical research is supported by grants. Oh my God, its SOCIALISM!

Anyone who has spent time working with or for the Feds has nothing but contempt for the inefficiency and laziness. It's the main reason I've always been staunchly conservative, but there are a lot of problems that market forces don't deal with. That's why we have government at all. The current healthcare system in the USA is unworkable, and both sides of the political divide know that. The reason the Republicans under Trump have been unable to completely eviscerate the fundamentally ineffective Obamacare is that they have nothing to replace it with that wouldn't snap shut the purses of a lot of powerful lobbies.

« Last Edit: March 06, 2019, 11:56:02 AM by PonoBill »
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Area 10

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #233 on: March 06, 2019, 11:59:48 AM »
Yes. As someone who has invented and marketed diagnostic medical procedures myself, I can tell you that the commercial companies throttle as many new innovations as they promote. The stuff that ends up on the market is not necessarily the best - where on earth did you get that idea?! - but instead is the stuff they can make the most money out of. And they’ll use any trick at their disposal to prevent competition getting a foothold. It’s not their fault. That’s what businesses exist to do. They are there to make money, not make the world a better place.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2019, 12:01:21 PM by Area 10 »

Bean

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #234 on: March 06, 2019, 12:27:21 PM »
Actually, I was looking at this from the consumer/demand side of the equation. In other words, how would world healthcare look today without the US healthcare economy in the background.

Take another look at the Pfizer example, a few years back they moved antibiotics research to China, but the focus (preceived demand) was still largely in the US market.

By "socialized" model I'm referring to a NHS model and not merely a single payer system. 
« Last Edit: March 06, 2019, 12:42:36 PM by Bean »

surf4food

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #235 on: March 06, 2019, 12:47:40 PM »
Good Stuff.

I feel your pain eastbound, buying insurance for a small company is shit in the current market. In WA we have two basic choices. It is definitely not a free market system. The first step to getting one would be elimination of the employer mandate. I would love to give my staff the extra $650-$850 a month in cash to choose the insurance they like best, and that fits their family best.

I get your point Ponobill, but saying "healthcare is a right" makes my point fundamentally true. It is saying I have a right to a doctor's time. The terminology is likely the weakness.  My concern with government run healthcare or even single payer is: I believe that more innovation and efficiency comes from an open market than it does from government workers doing it for the greater good.

Here is a Forbes article that states the United States produces about 40% of the worlds medical innovations. But it doesn't say whether or not it is because we are trying to make more money, or are doing it for the greater good. My opinion on human nature remains unchanged for the record.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/matthewherper/2011/03/23/the-most-innovative-countries-in-biology-and-medicine/#4a101f8f1a71

Maybe i'm a cynical asshole, but say you are a urologist: You can get paid by the government $600 for every vasectomy. So you set up to perform vasectomies, 2 per hour, every day. There is a laser system that is available out there for $350,000 that will do vasectomies at 10 minutes on center with no incisions. If you are in the private market you can charge $2,000 cash for each one with a little flashy marketing and drive to work in a yacht (after you pay off the gear)! Without this option does the vasectomy laser machine ever get built and tested?

I worked for the government for 4 years, and the amount of waste, laziness, entitlement, and stupidity has soured me - probably for life.

In my opinion, you SHOULD have a right to a doctor's time.  That doesn't mean any particular doctor is forced to treat you or face legal consequences which is kind of what you made it look in your previous post.  Read the examples in the other posts.  I don't have an answer.  I can't say whether or not what works in Canada, the U.K., other parts of Europe will work here in the U.S., but it's really pretty sad the way things are.  The idea that some just have to accept their fate that they will die or wind up out in the streets is beyond appalling. 

Area 10

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #236 on: March 06, 2019, 01:03:33 PM »
By "socialized" model I'm refering to a NHS model and not a single payer system.
Please stop associating it with socialism. It's really got f**k all to do with socialism. It is a nationally-sponsored non-profit system. The government has no say in who gets treated and how: The local doctors make those decisions. The government has little or no direct say in what treatments are offered (that is determined by a team of experts who are paid by the government but operate independently from them) or how. The government do have a say in the overall budgets, but the tax-payer holds them to account for that. The local health authorities (whose job it is to allocate resources locally) do have a say in a lot of decisions about how the healthcare is delivered. But they are not making their decisions with profitability in mind, but instead how best to deliver medical care, and to make the tax-payers money stretch as far as possible. It's a non-profit system, where everyone involved in it is trying to do their best for the most people that they can, and no profit is sought. Calling this socialist is just another rude way of trying to dismiss it. It would be like me calling your views "fascist": stupid and reactionary, and does not advance the discussion or our understanding one iota. You are being sold this b*ll*ocks about "socialist" healthcare by people who want to screw you out of your money. If the US switched tomorrow to a non-profit tax-supported healthcare system would it suddenly have turned into a "socialist" country? Of course not - the idea is total nonsense. The government would not be making any more decisions about your healthcare than they do now. Maybe even less, actually.

The UK government does not force its population to have an NHS. It's one of the things we support most! In terms of ratings of trust, the NHS consistently outperforms any other institution, even the church! And certainly the government. It is our CHOICE to have an NHS. We LIKE it. We chose it. We are proud of it. But you are using the word "socialism" to somehow suggest that the government force this upon us. This is utter and complete BS. We the people created it, we run it, and woe betide any government that messes with it (as many politicians have discovered to their detriment).

eastbound

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #237 on: March 06, 2019, 01:30:05 PM »
socialism liberal democrat commie pinko hippie==>these words instruct to turn one's brain off and jump in with the hateful dummy mob

what's funny is that, when polls strip away the turn-off-the-brain words, and describe attributes/detriments of specific programs, middle class often votes in favor of programs that they wouldnt were the dummy-mob words included

and yes, hippie---cuz i think this syndrome has roots as much in the 60's as it did in the 50's, courtesy of joe mccarthy nixon and roy cohn, trump's favorite lawyer (who was a close to a human piece of shit as is possible)

fear of those different from you is a powerful motivator if manipulated properly
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Bean

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #238 on: March 06, 2019, 01:39:54 PM »
Please stop associating it with socialism.

Based upon PB's response, there was obviously some missunderstanding in my previous post.  So, I was merely attempting to differentiate a full NHS from a single payer system.

Here I'll try it again:

By "socialized" model I'm refering to a NHS model and not a single payer system.
 
Certainly not meant to be a jab...







RideTheGlide

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #239 on: March 06, 2019, 01:42:38 PM »
socialism liberal democrat commie pinko hippie==>these words instruct to turn one's brain off and jump in with the hateful dummy mob

what's funny is that, when polls strip away the turn-off-the-brain words, and describe attributes/detriments of specific programs, middle class often votes in favor of programs that they wouldnt were the dummy-mob words included

and yes, hippie---cuz i think this syndrome has roots as much in the 60's as it did in the 50's, courtesy of joe mccarthy nixon and roy cohn, trump's favorite lawyer (who was a close to a human piece of shit as is possible)

fear of those different from you is a powerful motivator if manipulated properly

I grew up watching the proxy war with the Soviet Union in Vietnam on the nightly news and we all knew what the second S in USSR stood for, so socialism became a dirty word. Kids are less afraid to use the term because they mean what it actually is supposed to be, not what the fear mongers define it as and not what the communist bloc countries called socialism. My kids give me a hard time about saying I am a liberal, when they think I am a socialist.
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