Poll

This is a uniquely informed and diverse group to survey on any question, most definitely this one.  At this point, for whom would you cast your ballot?

Trump
19 (46.3%)
Biden
9 (22%)
Sanders
8 (19.5%)
Booker
4 (9.8%)
Klobuchar
1 (2.4%)

Total Members Voted: 41

Voting closed: March 21, 2019, 04:39:47 PM

Author Topic: 2020 Vision  (Read 124015 times)

eastbound

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #210 on: March 06, 2019, 03:11:03 AM »
<As you say healthcare is a business not a right in the US, I agree, and I am very interested in how it works in other countries. Does "healthcare as a right" mean that you have a right to a Doctor's labor? I.e. I go to school and become a doctor, and now if you are hurt or sick you can demand my time as your right? If I say no, I am forced to operate at government gunpoint?>

from what i hear from my friends in canada and europe it's quite the same process as here--make an appt, go see the doctor--only significant difference is that you never exchange payment, or engage any painful paperwork (ever been seriously sick? the paperwork and bill mess, including scary overcharges,etc, is often more stressful than the illness---and many, even those with "insurance", end up bankrupt after all the cheesing around by insurers)--

they report that there are no storm troopers with guns trained on doctors who need, for some reason, to be forced to work--in fact, in the UK, there are few guns and few homicides by gun--street cops dont carry--guns arent in circulation due to this weird thing called regulation of deadly weapons (guns)

thye report that they are occasionally waits for non time-sensitive care

my cousin called the office of my dad's PCP in FL---she was told that first appt for new patients was 6 months out---then she was asked "but who do you know?"

the most profitable approach to the private health insurance biz is to collect huge premiums, and deny all care--they cant do that, but they have certainly jacked premiums/deductibles and they certainly deny any care they can get away with---and they are hugely profitable for shareholders, engage admin inefficiently (compared to medicare, at least), and pay their executive suites stoopid gobs of money.

some things are best run by a democratic government---wars, justice and imprisonment, medical care---nothing like an anti socialist profiteer in search of taxpayer funds---try charter schools, generally a bogus, rigged, ripoff--and for-profit colleges! perfect--tap that GI money and load kids on loans for "schools" that spend 90% of their budgets on telemarketing--atta go devos--dont get me started on amway--what a slimehole





« Last Edit: March 06, 2019, 03:17:28 AM by eastbound »
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ukgm

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #211 on: March 06, 2019, 04:43:21 AM »
Imagine never having to worry about healthcare costs ever again, and paying LESS than you currently do in order to have that privilege.

A-10, that’s part of the disconnect.  US families that have even the most mediocre medical insurance pay about $15,000 + annually and might also incur upwards to $5,000 in out of pocket deductibles.  Approximately 10% of the population is uninsured, so who would be making up the difference?  That average family will not be “paying less”.
Yes they would/are. The average family in the UK pays nothing like that much money in taxes for their healthcare. Even when they are also paying through taxation for the healthcare of those who pay no taxes.

The difference is that the US healthcare system operates effectively to extract as much money from you as possible, instead of providing the most financially efficient service. In a healthcare system where people cannot make much money out of it, they don’t, and so large wads of money are not being siphoned out of the system at every turn. The money stays in the system.

This is not to say that the UK (for instance) healthcare system is efficient. It certainly is not. Procurement is a particular weakness. But is is still more efficient for the tax payer than having a privatised system. We see this in the few areas of our healthcare system where private companies operate. The assumption of our more right-leaning politicians and those who vote for them is that privatisation will make Services cheaper and better - because state-run operations are inherently less efficient, right? Wrong! Time and time again we see that from the point of view of the customer, the state-run system is more financially efficient. Prices go up and services go down when the private companies take over. Why? Because companies do not exist to serve the customers, but the shareholders.

Most recently we have seen this in the UK with our national train network. Several years ago we privatised large sections of what was previously an entirely state-run operation. Now the system is in crisis. Tickets are more expensive and the services run worse and there are fewer of them. Why? Because the companies are finding inventive ways to take money out of the pockets of the customers and put it into the pockets of the shareholders. When the rail system was entirely state-run, all the income from tickets bought (and taxation) stayed within the rail system. Plus the jobs of the workers were more secure, and so people stayed for longer meaning that the rail system was run by enthusiasts and very experienced individuals rather than marketing men who last week were inventing new ways to sell lavatory roll.

So if you want to really change your healthcare system you might start by challenging your financial (and therefore political) assumptions at a very fundamental level. What evidence do you really have that businesses provide value for money for their customers, vs. Nonprofit alternatives? In what way would a nonprofit system be less fair than the one you already have? It seems to me that your system is propped up by a set of assumptions/beliefs for which you probably actually have little evidence, but where it suits those who make money out of you for you to believe them.

It is also silly to label nonprofit operations like the UK National Health Service as e.g. “socialist” or anticapitalist or whatever. You are just being sold those nonsense labels by people who want to extract money from you. Forget the labels and just ask yourself what would work best for you. That’s all that matters.

^ Great reply.

RideTheGlide

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #212 on: March 06, 2019, 04:52:03 AM »
One note to make in the universal coverage debate - single payer does not require government run healthcare. I get so tire of opponents of universal coverage steering the conversation there and then arguing against government run healthcare instead of single payer. PACs and politicians conflate them all the time because government run healthcare scares people.
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Bean

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #213 on: March 06, 2019, 06:19:23 AM »
Imagine never having to worry about healthcare costs ever again, and paying LESS than you currently do in order to have that privilege.

A-10, that’s part of the disconnect.  US families that have even the most mediocre medical insurance pay about $15,000 + annually and might also incur upwards to $5,000 in out of pocket deductibles.  Approximately 10% of the population is uninsured, so who would be making up the difference?  That average family will not be “paying less”.
Yes they would/are. The average family in the UK pays nothing like that much money in taxes for their healthcare. Even when they are also paying through taxation for the healthcare of those who pay no taxes.

The difference is that the US healthcare system operates effectively to extract as much money from you as possible, instead of providing the most financially efficient service. In a healthcare system where people cannot make much money out of it, they don’t, and so large wads of money are not being siphoned out of the system at every turn. The money stays in the system.

This is not to say that the UK (for instance) healthcare system is efficient. It certainly is not. Procurement is a particular weakness. But is is still more efficient for the tax payer than having a privatised system. We see this in the few areas of our healthcare system where private companies operate. The assumption of our more right-leaning politicians and those who vote for them is that privatisation will make Services cheaper and better - because state-run operations are inherently less efficient, right? Wrong! Time and time again we see that from the point of view of the customer, the state-run system is more financially efficient. Prices go up and services go down when the private companies take over. Why? Because companies do not exist to serve the customers, but the shareholders.

Most recently we have seen this in the UK with our national train network. Several years ago we privatised large sections of what was previously an entirely state-run operation. Now the system is in crisis. Tickets are more expensive and the services run worse and there are fewer of them. Why? Because the companies are finding inventive ways to take money out of the pockets of the customers and put it into the pockets of the shareholders. When the rail system was entirely state-run, all the income from tickets bought (and taxation) stayed within the rail system. Plus the jobs of the workers were more secure, and so people stayed for longer meaning that the rail system was run by enthusiasts and very experienced individuals rather than marketing men who last week were inventing new ways to sell lavatory roll.

So if you want to really change your healthcare system you might start by challenging your financial (and therefore political) assumptions at a very fundamental level. What evidence do you really have that businesses provide value for money for their customers, vs. Nonprofit alternatives? In what way would a nonprofit system be less fair than the one you already have? It seems to me that your system is propped up by a set of assumptions/beliefs for which you probably actually have little evidence, but where it suits those who make money out of you for you to believe them.

It is also silly to label nonprofit operations like the UK National Health Service as e.g. “socialist” or anticapitalist or whatever. You are just being sold those nonsense labels by people who want to extract money from you. Forget the labels and just ask yourself what would work best for you. That’s all that matters.

^ Great reply.

In order for all of that to happen, we would have to go beyond a simple single payer system and adopt a government run healthcare system.  That is a hard sell for many here in the US. 
« Last Edit: March 06, 2019, 06:35:17 AM by Bean »

Area 10

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #214 on: March 06, 2019, 06:35:09 AM »
Bean - if you want something to change, then something will have to change.

Or you can carry on being forcibly bent over and royally shafted hard up the ass for the rest of your life :)

The choice is yours. What have you got to lose?

Bean

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #215 on: March 06, 2019, 06:35:47 AM »
Freedom

Area 10

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #216 on: March 06, 2019, 07:18:13 AM »
Freedom
You are free at the moment? Seems like I have a lot more freedom that you have, healthcare-wise. I can choose to be treated for free by the state, or I can pay to go private if I want. It is true that I can’t opt out of the state healthcare - but why the hell would I??! You’d need to be nuts to do that.

You are, I think, being sold a lot of nonsense about government healthcare systems. Even the most extreme right-wing elements in this country support the National Health Service. It gives us freedom to choose to do what we want with our lives such as change jobs, work for charities or in low-wage jobs, live where we want to, retire when we want to etc without fear of ending up without healthcare cover. That’s real freedom, my friend. Having the choice to spend a small fortune on one bad value deal or another one, and to constantly worry about possible healthcare bills is not freedom but servitude.

Bean

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #217 on: March 06, 2019, 08:06:18 AM »
I could schedule a cataract procedure for next week, while somone under the NHS would be bumping into the furniture for 3 months or possibly more.

Here is a serious question for you A-10.  Hypothetically, if one of your lawmakers needed a hip replacement would they be subject to the waiting list?  Would they simply go private? 

eastbound

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #218 on: March 06, 2019, 08:12:38 AM »
freedom?? whah??

freedom to choose insurance among competing insurers? to shop around? like in a competitive capitalist market? no such luck herein the US of A

maybe you mean freedom to pick whatever insurance is offered by one's employer?  where 50% of costs get deducted from paycheck, and deductibles are thru the roof, and choice of doctors hospitals and care are determined not by elected government officials, but by for-profit insurance technocrats and executives?? like freedom to pick from a couple of crap policies offered by one's employer?

and shop away from your job?? forget it if you want some choice of decent care with reasonable deductibles and freedom to choose care providers-- as a small biz owner i continually check the "open" market, and what's available is crap, at least here in NY and NJ, where my partner lives--

Have you ever shopped for policies?--by design they are all unique and impossible to cost compare--and then when one signs on only to find out their "in network" list is intentionally out of date, such that one's doctors arent even in the plan! then you have the freedom to choose among a list of unknown doctors who cut a deal with the insurer! that kinda freedom?? there's always yelp!!

ive owned a small biz for 23 years, and had to shop often--it's a joke

a part of obamacare that got lobbied away was similar to what liz warren has tried to do with mortgage and cc docs--make them easily cost and terms comparable for non-expert consumers---where there are stock defined policies, terms of which are defined by consortium of docs hospitals pharma, and yes, consumer advocates--where identical policies of variable standard quality are offered by different insurers, in competition with one another--where performance is monitored, so we get what we paid for---that would be freedom to choose, and that was at the top of the repub list of things that had to be removed for obamacare to pass--and of course they've now gutted the watered down obamacare anyway. so whatever that

freedom?   here?  to choose prudently among decent HI plans? where?
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eastbound

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #219 on: March 06, 2019, 08:22:53 AM »
id take care with a cataract mill that can take you next week--just sayin'

i almost got my hip replaced last summer at HSS--thk goodness for the 10 week schedule delay--my hip improved so I cancelled the appt

i have many friends in europe and canada, all of whom are appalled when they hear detail about our HI system

all sides to this have their anecdotes at the ready
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eastbound

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #220 on: March 06, 2019, 08:30:48 AM »
2020 vision???

i thought this was a cataract and eye care thread

haha

glad this shit is contained in this thread!!!

freedom to engage or not--plenty of other threads

like who's gonna steal my 8'10" creek--i think ill go drop the price--make that board truly competitive--down to 750--much as people wont buy new balance sneakers bc--of their pro-trump anti-obama statements (that would include me), my politics here may make my creek a tough sale--bet my cheap price works!
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Bean

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #221 on: March 06, 2019, 08:38:58 AM »
Uff...

RideTheGlide

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #222 on: March 06, 2019, 09:23:36 AM »
I could schedule a cataract procedure for next week, while somone under the NHS would be bumping into the furniture for 3 months or possibly more.

Here is a serious question for you A-10.  Hypothetically, if one of your lawmakers needed a hip replacement would they be subject to the waiting list?  Would they simply go private?

My US anecdata for both of your examples - I know or have known a number of people with cataracts; some had surgery and some didn't. They learned about them before they were in the bumping into furniture stage and those that had surgery usually scheduled it weeks or months away because of the downtime. The ones that didn't have surgery had slow developing cataracts. Only a few people I've known with hip replacements and one was treated as something of an emergency because of a break that would not have set properly. I think that would also be an emergency in the UK, but don't know that for certain

A little Googling indicates the average wait time for cataract surgery in the UK is 37 days. There are wide variances in various countries independent of type of health care.

I wonder what the average wait time for surgery is for destitute patients in the US. Both surgeries are considered elective unless deemed medically necessary. That would be due to size and/or growth rate of a cataract or if you have a hip break like my great uncle where there was no chance of recovery.

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PonoBill

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #223 on: March 06, 2019, 09:53:19 AM »
For what it's worth, the argument of taking a doctors labor from them is completely specious. Modern medicine is a huge industry with costs that dwarf almost every individual sector in the US economy and those costs have almost nothing to do with how much doctors are paid--physicians salaries are less than ten percent of the cost. Looking at the way the per capita cost calculations are made it's probably a lot less than ten percent.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2019, 10:09:13 AM by PonoBill »
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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #224 on: March 06, 2019, 10:00:57 AM »
It'd be interesting to know, if Howard Schultz was added to the poll (that thing at the top of this thread) would anyone change their vote?  And if so, would you be voting for him instead of Trump, or instead of a Democrat?  He countered criticism by Democrats that he'd be siphoning off Democratic votes, thus helping Trump, by saying he thought he'd have lots of Republicans choosing him over Trump.  Not sure that's true.  I guess it may be influenced by what Democrat gets picked.

 


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