Poll

This is a uniquely informed and diverse group to survey on any question, most definitely this one.  At this point, for whom would you cast your ballot?

Trump
19 (46.3%)
Biden
9 (22%)
Sanders
8 (19.5%)
Booker
4 (9.8%)
Klobuchar
1 (2.4%)

Total Members Voted: 41

Voting closed: March 21, 2019, 04:39:47 PM

Author Topic: 2020 Vision  (Read 124074 times)

spirit4earth

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #195 on: March 05, 2019, 01:27:13 PM »
Hmmm....assuming you were for Hillary, what policies of hers did you like?
(or Bernie's?)

I am closer to Bernie on policy, especially with respect to taxing corporations and high earners. I also support the idea of Medicare for All the way he first proposed it - lowering the qualifying age in steps while filling in the gaps in coverage.

I don't think people should have to start their careers deep in debt to get an education.

I support keeping the planet habitable for future generations. I support a woman's right to choice. I think the military budget is ridiculous and needs to be trimmed back. I think that serving in the military should be open to all. I think that racism, xenophobia, homophobia and misogyny have no place in government.

I think that the senate controlling the judiciary by withholding appointment power from one administration to provide it to another is violating the spirit of the constitution's checks and balances; a President abusing executive powers to work around both other branches is also trampling on the constitution.

I am strongly against gerrymandering. I live in a state where the GOP won 10 of 13 seats with 50.3% of the vote. That's not democracy as the forefathers intended.

I am against policies that purport to protect us from an insignificant risk at the polls by means that have been proven to reduce the number of minority voters that turn out. I am against limiting voting locations and days/hours (early voting) to blatantly reduce the number of working poor who are able to vote.

I want big money out of politics. I think Citizens United should be overturned.

If you support Trump, you are supporting someone in opposition to me on every single point. I see that as an immoral choice not because you disagree with me but because some of these are basic values. Trump is morally bankrupt. That's why I have a hard time accepting it when family and others I know well support Trump.

You’ve said it well.

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #196 on: March 05, 2019, 01:28:30 PM »
I guess the reassuring part threw me.
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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #197 on: March 05, 2019, 01:35:44 PM »
I meant only that is reassuring to hear some old school republicans who have found this to be out of bounds. At least a few (hopefully enough) understand what Russia is, what Putin is, and believe that our intelligence agencies have this right.  Could you have imagined a time when the republican party would be deriding our intelligence agencies for the likes of Putin and Love Affair Un?   I can understand skepticism and criticism of Socialism (Democratic or otherwise) but given the choice I will go Scandinavian before Russian or North Korean. 
« Last Edit: March 05, 2019, 01:39:45 PM by Admin »

Bean

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #198 on: March 05, 2019, 01:55:15 PM »
Let’s just focus on the US vs  Norway for a second.  Ok, thanks.

So we can figure out how to beat them?

Rider is probably right about one thing, absent impeachment (which I think is next to impossible, he could strangle a baby on national TV and his followers would say the baby had it coming) I think Trump is a shoo-in for a second term, not because he is in any way suitable for the job, but because the Democrats are already working hard on tossing the election. The Dems are scaring the crap out of everyone with unbridled far left daydreams, Nancy Pelosi is off being Nancy Pelosi, and the slate of democratic hopefuls looks like a great way to divide up the electorate and leave them at home. The gang that can't shoot straight. Seriously, look at that poll--the front runners of the flock and not a rational centrist among them.

I'd never vote for Trump, but I might have to vote for Pat Paulson. Is he still alive?

You mean Pat Paulsen? I think he's still dead...

Ross Perot is still available, but what is he without Adm Stockdale...

And no, we can't beat the Norwegians on a per catpita cost basis.  Thats my point, you might never think that based upon that chart.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2019, 01:58:57 PM by Bean »

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #199 on: March 05, 2019, 03:37:50 PM »
Healthcare in the states is a business instead of a human right.

And with the triad of doctor-hospital-pharma and underlying insurance companies powerfully lobbying to keep the status quo.....

As you say healthcare is a business not a right in the US, I agree, and I am very interested in how it works in other countries. Does "healthcare as a right" mean that you have a right to a Doctor's labor? I.e. I go to school and become a doctor, and now if you are hurt or sick you can demand my time as your right? If I say no, I am forced to operate at government gunpoint?

It is really weird to think about from my perspective (a lifelong small business guy). The thought of someone demanding my product as a right confuses me.
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Area 10

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #200 on: March 05, 2019, 04:02:55 PM »
Healthcare in the states is a business instead of a human right.

And with the triad of doctor-hospital-pharma and underlying insurance companies powerfully lobbying to keep the status quo.....

As you say healthcare is a business not a right in the US, I agree, and I am very interested in how it works in other countries. Does "healthcare as a right" mean that you have a right to a Doctor's labor? I.e. I go to school and become a doctor, and now if you are hurt or sick you can demand my time as your right? If I say no, I am forced to operate at government gunpoint?

It is really weird to think about from my perspective (a lifelong small business guy). The thought of someone demanding my product as a right confuses me.
It’s quite simple. In the UK, if you get ill you make an appointment with a General Practioner doctor (a GP). The doctor sees you, and either refers you on to a specialist or eg. gives you a prescription. You take the prescription to the pharmacy and then pay a small amount for it to be filled, or if you can’t afford it, you can get it for free or a reduced rate.

If your illness is more serious you just go straight to your nearest hospital. They will then treat you, no matter who you are, and no matter how serious the illness is. Or you can call 999 (the same as your 911) and an ambulance will take you to hospital if you are too ill to get there yourself.

At no point does money change hands between you and the doctors or hospitals etc, and you will not be billed for your treatment no matter how expensive it was. NO BILLS. This is paid for through general taxation. The UK public believes that free healthcare at the point of delivery is one of this country’s greatest achievements. We do bellyache about taxes, of course, but rarely does anyone question money being spent on healthcare, even if we use it far less than others.

We also have free social services. So, if you get ill and can’t work, you will not end up on the streets. If necessary, you will be housed free of charge.

Yes, some people do abuse the system. But these numbers are surprisingly small, and we think of it as the price you pay to live in a country where you know that the government will look after you if the worst happens to you in life. We do not see our government and their services as the enemy (as you often seem to), but there to look after us.

We would not accost doctors in the way you suggest. They would have the right to refuse you. But since you could just go to your GP or the hospital anyway, why would you? Your GP or hospital will not turn you away.

Our healthcare system is quite a lot cheaper than yours per capita, I think. Imagine never having to worry about healthcare costs ever again, and paying LESS than you currently do in order to have that privilege. That’s why we think your system is nuts.

Quickbeam

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #201 on: March 05, 2019, 04:03:36 PM »
Healthcare in the states is a business instead of a human right.

And with the triad of doctor-hospital-pharma and underlying insurance companies powerfully lobbying to keep the status quo.....

As you say healthcare is a business not a right in the US, I agree, and I am very interested in how it works in other countries. Does "healthcare as a right" mean that you have a right to a Doctor's labor? I.e. I go to school and become a doctor, and now if you are hurt or sick you can demand my time as your right? If I say no, I am forced to operate at government gunpoint?

It is really weird to think about from my perspective (a lifelong small business guy). The thought of someone demanding my product as a right confuses me.


I’ve never heard of that before. But it’s interesting the things we learn on this forum. I could never have imagined that would be an argument against what we in Canada call “universal health care”, but coming from your perspective, and the way you put it, I can see your concern.

But no, it does not work like that. What universal health care means, is that we all have equal access to health care, at least in principle. It does not mean that we can go and tell a doctor on his day off that he needs to treat us now.   

I say we all have equal access to health care “in principle” because it doesn’t always work that way. As an example, where the ordinary person might have a waiting period to get an MRI, professional athletes can get them right away. We are also starting to see privatized, for profit medicine creep into our system, which I believe is to the system’s detriment. I personally am not one to believe that the Government needs to be the only provider of health care. But what I don’t want to see is privatized, for profit care in our system, and we are seeing some of that. As an example, if you want to pay, you can now get private MRI’s done, etc.

So our system is not perfect. I’m not sure any system is. But from what I’ve seen, I would take our system over that in the U.S.

The one stark reminder I always have is regarding retirement. I’ve seen a few retirement threads on the Zone over the years and inevitably there are posts from some who need to delay their retirement because of health care costs. Not because of health care concerns, but because of the cost of getting health care coverage. That is something that is foreign to us. When I retired I was in good health, but irrespective of this, the cost of health care didn’t enter into my thinking. Just wasn’t the slightest concern.
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eastbound

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #202 on: March 05, 2019, 05:04:47 PM »
i operated a business in toronto for a few years--staffed with bank trading executives--when i asked re benefits, they looked puzzled--they all, incl the guy who got prostate cancer during my time there, had no beef with the canadian health care system---and these were pretty well-educated, well-off folk--they could have afforded to supplement canadian "universal health care"---so there's my anecdotal

somehow canada, uk, and most other developed countries can afford to provide universal care for all, rich and poor---but here the repubs call it a laughable far-left liberal fantasy that we can never afford

oh wait college is free in the uk too--somehow they can afford that liberal moron fantasy too--where we saddle our kids with debt before they even enter the workforce

somehow these wacko liberal fantasies get paid for elsewhere-and in most cases data says the health care in these places is superior too!--and most of these countries do it without the massive deficits weve arranged with tax cuts for the wealthy and a moronic war in iraq--but deficits dont matter (unless repubs are trying to cut stuff we cant afford--like food stamps--UE insurance--free health care for poor lazy children--tax and spend liberal stuff like that).
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RideTheGlide

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #203 on: March 05, 2019, 05:23:53 PM »
i operated a business in toronto for a few years--staffed with bank trading executives--when i asked re benefits, they looked puzzled--they all, incl the guy who got prostate cancer during my time there, had no beef with the canadian health care system---and these were pretty well-educated, well-off folk--they could have afforded to supplement canadian "universal health care"---so there's my anecdotal

somehow canada, uk, and most other developed countries can afford to provide universal care for all, rich and poor---but here the repubs call it a laughable far-left liberal fantasy that we can never afford

oh wait college is free in the uk too--somehow they can afford that liberal moron fantasy too--where we saddle our kids with debt before they even enter the workforce

somehow these wacko liberal fantasies get paid for elsewhere-and in most cases data says the health care in these places is superior too!--and most of these countries do it without the massive deficits weve arranged with tax cuts for the wealthy and a moronic war in iraq--but deficits dont matter (unless repubs are trying to cut stuff we cant afford--like food stamps--UE insurance--free health care for poor lazy children--tax and spend liberal stuff like that).

I get accused of over simplifying when I make that same argument. Most of the industrialized world makes these things work. Are they really that much smarter than us? Lots of hand waving about how it can't work here, running numbers that still include exorbitant fees and ridiculous prescription mark ups. It is hard to fix our broken system if we only make adjustments out at the edges.
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Bean

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #204 on: March 05, 2019, 05:35:39 PM »
Imagine never having to worry about healthcare costs ever again, and paying LESS than you currently do in order to have that privilege.

A-10, that’s part of the disconnect.  US families that have even the most mediocre medical insurance pay about $15,000 + annually and might also incur upwards to $5,000 in out of pocket deductibles.  Approximately 10% of the population is uninsured, so who would be making up the difference?  That average family will not be “paying less”.

spirit4earth

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #205 on: March 05, 2019, 06:19:38 PM »
Healthcare in the states is a business instead of a human right.

And with the triad of doctor-hospital-pharma and underlying insurance companies powerfully lobbying to keep the status quo.....

As you say healthcare is a business not a right in the US, I agree, and I am very interested in how it works in other countries. Does "healthcare as a right" mean that you have a right to a Doctor's labor? I.e. I go to school and become a doctor, and now if you are hurt or sick you can demand my time as your right? If I say no, I am forced to operate at government gunpoint?

It is really weird to think about from my perspective (a lifelong small business guy). The thought of someone demanding my product as a right confuses me.


I’ve never heard of that before. But it’s interesting the things we learn on this forum. I could never have imagined that would be an argument against what we in Canada call “universal health care”, but coming from your perspective, and the way you put it, I can see your concern.

But no, it does not work like that. What universal health care means, is that we all have equal access to health care, at least in principle. It does not mean that we can go and tell a doctor on his day off that he needs to treat us now.   

I say we all have equal access to health care “in principle” because it doesn’t always work that way. As an example, where the ordinary person might have a waiting period to get an MRI, professional athletes can get them right away. We are also starting to see privatized, for profit medicine creep into our system, which I believe is to the system’s detriment. I personally am not one to believe that the Government needs to be the only provider of health care. But what I don’t want to see is privatized, for profit care in our system, and we are seeing some of that. As an example, if you want to pay, you can now get private MRI’s done, etc.

So our system is not perfect. I’m not sure any system is. But from what I’ve seen, I would take our system over that in the U.S.

The one stark reminder I always have is regarding retirement. I’ve seen a few retirement threads on the Zone over the years and inevitably there are posts from some who need to delay their retirement because of health care costs. Not because of health care concerns, but because of the cost of getting health care coverage. That is something that is foreign to us. When I retired I was in good health, but irrespective of this, the cost of health care didn’t enter into my thinking. Just wasn’t the slightest concern.

Not having to think about the cost of health care is so foreign to most of us in the US.  Sounds good to me!

Quickbeam

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #206 on: March 05, 2019, 06:32:25 PM »
Healthcare in the states is a business instead of a human right.

And with the triad of doctor-hospital-pharma and underlying insurance companies powerfully lobbying to keep the status quo.....

As you say healthcare is a business not a right in the US, I agree, and I am very interested in how it works in other countries. Does "healthcare as a right" mean that you have a right to a Doctor's labor? I.e. I go to school and become a doctor, and now if you are hurt or sick you can demand my time as your right? If I say no, I am forced to operate at government gunpoint?

It is really weird to think about from my perspective (a lifelong small business guy). The thought of someone demanding my product as a right confuses me.


I’ve never heard of that before. But it’s interesting the things we learn on this forum. I could never have imagined that would be an argument against what we in Canada call “universal health care”, but coming from your perspective, and the way you put it, I can see your concern.

But no, it does not work like that. What universal health care means, is that we all have equal access to health care, at least in principle. It does not mean that we can go and tell a doctor on his day off that he needs to treat us now.   

I say we all have equal access to health care “in principle” because it doesn’t always work that way. As an example, where the ordinary person might have a waiting period to get an MRI, professional athletes can get them right away. We are also starting to see privatized, for profit medicine creep into our system, which I believe is to the system’s detriment. I personally am not one to believe that the Government needs to be the only provider of health care. But what I don’t want to see is privatized, for profit care in our system, and we are seeing some of that. As an example, if you want to pay, you can now get private MRI’s done, etc.

So our system is not perfect. I’m not sure any system is. But from what I’ve seen, I would take our system over that in the U.S.

The one stark reminder I always have is regarding retirement. I’ve seen a few retirement threads on the Zone over the years and inevitably there are posts from some who need to delay their retirement because of health care costs. Not because of health care concerns, but because of the cost of getting health care coverage. That is something that is foreign to us. When I retired I was in good health, but irrespective of this, the cost of health care didn’t enter into my thinking. Just wasn’t the slightest concern.

Not having to think about the cost of health care is so foreign to most of us in the US.  Sounds good to me!


Hi Spirit. Yes, it’s sad really. You live in one of the richest countries in the world, yet the cost of health care seems to be a major factor for many. Just seems to be a disconnect there.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2019, 06:34:54 PM by Quickbeam »
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surf4food

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #207 on: March 05, 2019, 07:05:30 PM »

 Does "healthcare as a right" mean that you have a right to a Doctor's labor? I.e. I go to school and become a doctor, and now if you are hurt or sick you can demand my time as your right? If I say no, I am forced to operate at government gunpoint?


RideTheGlide

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #208 on: March 05, 2019, 07:14:50 PM »
Imagine never having to worry about healthcare costs ever again, and paying LESS than you currently do in order to have that privilege.

A-10, that’s part of the disconnect.  US families that have even the most mediocre medical insurance pay about $15,000 + annually and might also incur upwards to $5,000 in out of pocket deductibles.  Approximately 10% of the population is uninsured, so who would be making up the difference?  That average family will not be “paying less”.

Two big problems - how health care is paid for, filling the coffers of insurance companies and how much it costs, filling the coffers of big pharma, labs, for profit hospitals, insurance again because of litigation, etc. Too many fingers in too many pies between people and the medication and services they need. One of the biggest disconnects of all is ignoring that. Shuffling around who pays how much is only part of the solution and if you evaluate it alone then of course it doesn't solve the problem. That's not a valid reason to discard it instead of considering it as part of the overall solution.

« Last Edit: March 05, 2019, 07:16:28 PM by RideTheGlide »
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Area 10

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #209 on: March 06, 2019, 12:56:27 AM »
Imagine never having to worry about healthcare costs ever again, and paying LESS than you currently do in order to have that privilege.

A-10, that’s part of the disconnect.  US families that have even the most mediocre medical insurance pay about $15,000 + annually and might also incur upwards to $5,000 in out of pocket deductibles.  Approximately 10% of the population is uninsured, so who would be making up the difference?  That average family will not be “paying less”.
Yes they would/are. The average family in the UK pays nothing like that much money in taxes for their healthcare. Even when they are also paying through taxation for the healthcare of those who pay no taxes.

The difference is that the US healthcare system operates effectively to extract as much money from you as possible, instead of providing the most financially efficient service. In a healthcare system where people cannot make much money out of it, they don’t, and so large wads of money are not being siphoned out of the system at every turn. The money stays in the system.

This is not to say that the UK (for instance) healthcare system is efficient. It certainly is not. Procurement is a particular weakness. But is is still more efficient for the tax payer than having a privatised system. We see this in the few areas of our healthcare system where private companies operate. The assumption of our more right-leaning politicians and those who vote for them is that privatisation will make Services cheaper and better - because state-run operations are inherently less efficient, right? Wrong! Time and time again we see that from the point of view of the customer, the state-run system is more financially efficient. Prices go up and services go down when the private companies take over. Why? Because companies do not exist to serve the customers, but the shareholders.

Most recently we have seen this in the UK with our national train network. Several years ago we privatised large sections of what was previously an entirely state-run operation. Now the system is in crisis. Tickets are more expensive and the services run worse and there are fewer of them. Why? Because the companies are finding inventive ways to take money out of the pockets of the customers and put it into the pockets of the shareholders. When the rail system was entirely state-run, all the income from tickets bought (and taxation) stayed within the rail system. Plus the jobs of the workers were more secure, and so people stayed for longer meaning that the rail system was run by enthusiasts and very experienced individuals rather than marketing men who last week were inventing new ways to sell lavatory roll.

So if you want to really change your healthcare system you might start by challenging your financial (and therefore political) assumptions at a very fundamental level. What evidence do you really have that businesses provide value for money for their customers, vs. Nonprofit alternatives? In what way would a nonprofit system be less fair than the one you already have? It seems to me that your system is propped up by a set of assumptions/beliefs for which you probably actually have little evidence, but where it suits those who make money out of you for you to believe them.

It is also silly to label nonprofit operations like the UK National Health Service as e.g. “socialist” or anticapitalist or whatever. You are just being sold those nonsense labels by people who want to extract money from you. Forget the labels and just ask yourself what would work best for you. That’s all that matters.

 


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