Poll

This is a uniquely informed and diverse group to survey on any question, most definitely this one.  At this point, for whom would you cast your ballot?

Trump
19 (46.3%)
Biden
9 (22%)
Sanders
8 (19.5%)
Booker
4 (9.8%)
Klobuchar
1 (2.4%)

Total Members Voted: 41

Voting closed: March 21, 2019, 04:39:47 PM

Author Topic: 2020 Vision  (Read 123965 times)

Subber

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #180 on: March 05, 2019, 10:14:30 AM »
I will defend one of my points, just to illustrate that I do actually put some thought into it. I don't support universal health care only out of concern for those less fortunate. That is a primary reason for my support but I will set it aside as I know that not everyone wants to look out for everyone else.

I will surprise a few of you by agreeing that is possible for free market health insurance to be more affordable than universal care.

Take a look at this chart:


I got it from a conservative blog post that seem to be pretty well informed, but I think there is a fatal flaw in their conclusion.
https://itdoesnotaddup.com/2014/10/16/how-do-we-establish-a-free-market-healthcare-system-in-the-u-s/

In that chart, blue is universal care and red is free market. As you can see, most of the major industrialized countries have gone to a universal model. But the other 2 countries that still have free market health insurance are 2 of the lowest 3 by cost. They let private companies participate but use exchanges with subsidies and regulate the crap out of insurance and health providers. IMO, it isn't realistic for us to get there fighting the private insurance companies, their lobbyists and the congress members they buy tooth and nail all the way. If we don't cut the cancer out in one operation, we won't get rid of it. This is the fatal flaw I referred to earlier. What's being proposed might work but you can't get there from here. A solution isn't practical if implementation isn't practical.

Ok, why is the cost (actually the price) of the USA's "market-based"  healthcare system so much higher
than Singapore's and Switzerland's?

(I note the chart is from 2012, so the USA's price is a lot higher now after Obamacare)
« Last Edit: March 05, 2019, 10:17:03 AM by Subber »
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eastbound

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #181 on: March 05, 2019, 10:27:14 AM »
ha!

that's funny

so high US healthcare costs are because of obamacare--link me something credible

repubs gutted obamacare before it even got out of the starting blox
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Area 10

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #182 on: March 05, 2019, 10:34:42 AM »
Your healthcare is so expensive substantially because (a) the job of business is to maximise profit, not to give value for money; (b) your litigation culture, and (c) you get charged for a load of procedures and investigations that you wouldn’t be given in other countries (because they probably don’t affect outcome much).

Bean

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #183 on: March 05, 2019, 11:15:58 AM »
Let’s just focus on the US vs  Norway for a second.  Ok, thanks.

surfinJ

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #184 on: March 05, 2019, 11:19:34 AM »
Healthcare in the states is a business instead of a human right.

And with the triad of doctor-hospital-pharma and underlying insurance companies powerfully lobbying to keep the status quo.....

RideTheGlide

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #185 on: March 05, 2019, 11:36:27 AM »
Let’s just focus on the US vs  Norway for a second.  Ok, thanks.

I think we could learn more from the vast majority that do it better than us than from the two that do it worse.
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RideTheGlide

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #186 on: March 05, 2019, 11:38:40 AM »
ha!

that's funny

so high US healthcare costs are because of obamacare--link me something credible

repubs gutted obamacare before it even got out of the starting blox

Healthcare costs have been on a pretty steady rise since the 90s and the compromised version ACA didn't have much impact on the trajectory.
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Subber

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #187 on: March 05, 2019, 12:36:57 PM »
Healthcare in the states is a business instead of a human right.

And with the triad of doctor-hospital-pharma and underlying insurance companies powerfully lobbying to keep the status quo.....

I think you are correct. 

I think it may be "market driven" but it is hardly "free market."
There are lots of government-granted monopoly powers and subsidies, etc.
that have driven the Price of our healthcare up and up and up.  (Of course, insurance is
up because the underlying Price is up).  Breaking the stranglehold would probably
be very difficult.  On top of that I think there are socialistic transfer payments.

I'd really like to know if those are the primary reason why "market driven"
Singapore and Switzerland's systems have Prices that are so much lower
than ours.
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spirit4earth

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #188 on: March 05, 2019, 12:45:59 PM »
Hey Guys, I want to say something and I know this group can hear it. Can we move past all you have to is "earn it"? Talldude, I am guessing you are a white, straight male. And I know you are a badass from pictures and your writing and there is no doubt you worked very hard and your daughter too. You did not compete on an even playing field period!  You were highly advantaged even if you started at zero and you were way ahead of ALL women, people of color and gays and god forbid some combination.   

My father was at the beginning of his sophomore of college at Lehigh(all male) when his dad at 39 dropped dead of heart attack. My grandfather was a GE salesman with no college education and did not leave much. Lehigh said my dad had to hit a certain grade point and they waived the tuition for 3 years. His two younger sisters were not so lucky. He thinks he is far superior to them. Hmmm. Just illustrating a point.

People need to work hard. Word up. I fear Pono's numbers about healthcare and it is hard to see a solution. My mom and I were just talking about when I was kid and she was a kid we just paid for all healthcare except cancer and car crashes. You need some disposable income to live in that environment. We need better wealth distribution. Nothing in my comments or anybody else's comments are talking about giving away shit for free. Although giving away money to those with nothing has proven over and over again to be cheaper and better for the economy than creating infrastructure that gets bogged down in stasis, politics and corruption but that is a discussion for another time.

Thank you.  The playing field is nowhere close to level.

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #189 on: March 05, 2019, 12:47:51 PM »
The change in opinion on the right in regards to Russia has been one of the most engaging elements of this spectacle.  It has been borderline comical to watch them flip out at the mention of extremists such as Sanders, Warren, Cortez, etc. while their boss is publicly idolizing Putin (over American intelligence).  It is reassuring to hear some old school republicans who have found this to be out of bounds.  That group has pulled away from Trump and will likely be the deciding factor in the next election...if we get that far.


PonoBill

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #190 on: March 05, 2019, 12:53:15 PM »
Let’s just focus on the US vs  Norway for a second.  Ok, thanks.

So we can figure out how to beat them?

Rider is probably right about one thing, absent impeachment (which I think is next to impossible, he could strangle a baby on national TV and his followers would say the baby had it coming) I think Trump is a shoo-in for a second term, not because he is in any way suitable for the job, but because the Democrats are already working hard on tossing the election. The Dems are scaring the crap out of everyone with unbridled far left daydreams, Nancy Pelosi is off being Nancy Pelosi, and the slate of democratic hopefuls looks like a great way to divide up the electorate and leave them at home. The gang that can't shoot straight. Seriously, look at that poll--the front runners of the flock and not a rational centrist among them.

I'd never vote for Trump, but I might have to vote for Pat Paulson. Is he still alive?
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PonoBill

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #191 on: March 05, 2019, 12:58:02 PM »
The change in opinion on the right in regards to Russia has been one of the most engaging elements of this spectacle.  It has been borderline comical to watch them flip out at the mention of extremists such as Sanders, Warren, Cortez, etc. while their boss is publicly idolizing Putin (over American intelligence).  It is reassuring to hear some old school republicans who have found this to be out of bounds.  That group has pulled away from Trump and will likely be the deciding factor in the next election...if we get that far.



I'm sorry, WHAT? Did you misread that graph?
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spirit4earth

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #192 on: March 05, 2019, 01:12:42 PM »
Earth to A10 & RTG. Nobody gives a fuck what you think. That is all.....

FYI, a lot of people on this forum DO care about what Area10 and ridetheglide think.

spirit4earth

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #193 on: March 05, 2019, 01:18:46 PM »
weasel, no upset here--just a discussion. hang in there. youre entitled to your pov.

frankly, Trump's claims of, and claims to have caused, job growth and pay gains, are very much in dispute, if not totally debunked.

so your presentation of such as fact is questionable.

but let's assume youre correct in those claims, what specific programs that Trump put it place have caused the "records in every category" jobs and pay gains that you claim to be fact?

serve em up!

I haven’t noticed any pay gains for the lower class or working poor.  Pay gains have happened in liberal cities where the minimum wage has been raised in order to MAYBE keep people off the streets and MAYBE get ahead.
Whose pay has increased because of trump?  Perhaps those who didn’t really need a pay raise in the first place?

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #194 on: March 05, 2019, 01:18:52 PM »
The change in opinion on the right in regards to Russia has been one of the most engaging elements of this spectacle.  It has been borderline comical to watch them flip out at the mention of extremists such as Sanders, Warren, Cortez, etc. while their boss is publicly idolizing Putin (over American intelligence).  It is reassuring to hear some old school republicans who have found this to be out of bounds.  That group has pulled away from Trump and will likely be the deciding factor in the next election...if we get that far.



I'm sorry, WHAT? Did you misread that graph?

Well, I guess that depends on if you think I meant what I actually meant.  :)

In 2015 only 32 % of republicans viewed Russia as friendly or an ally.  Now that number is 59%.
In 2015 62 % of Republicans viewed Russia as an enemy.  Now that number is 36%.

So, either Russia has become a lot friendlier or the sheep have moved pastures (or more fitting to this thread, they are now bandying their balls about on a different court). 

 


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