2020 Vision

[Admin]

There could be no more fitting end than for Donald to go down for campaign finance violations over hiring a straw man to purchase a painting of himself with charity funds in an effort to appear desirable (and then keeping the painting).  You really could not write this stuff.

[Area 10]

A10, you can’t tell much about a person’s wealth from a US income tax return.  Unlike a corporate return, there is no balance sheet, just income items.  It’s just as likely that he is embarrassed about a relatively low income level as he would be having understated his earnings.  And if there was an understatement, he would have amended it by now.  Amended returns are pretty routine here in the US.

Did someone actually sat that determining wealth was the point of seeing the tax returns? There have been allegations of tax fraud, and not just from Cohen. Paper losses that likely would not hold up and other tricks. Questions have been raised about some of the sources of income. If there are no issues, why not just hand them over?

Yes, you and PB have got it. I don’t think anyone is much interested in how much money he has got. It’s about where it comes from and goes too, and evidence of tax evasion, and shady dealings especially with foreign figures who pose a threat to the US.

Tax returns are probably the most telling test of a person’s character that we have in modern life. IMO Trump is fundamentally corrupt, and it seems vanishingly unlikely to me that his tax returns are squeaky clean, or even passably clean. I suspect that when his tax returns finally surface - as surely they must, eventually - it will accelerate the decline of Trump that has already started. What might make this happen? Perhaps multiple actions like this, perhaps?

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/new-jersey-ballot-tax-returns/

[Bean]

There could be no more fitting end than for Donald to go down for campaign finance violations over hiring a straw man to purchase a painting of himself with charity funds in an effort to appear desirable (and then keeping the painting).  You really could not write this stuff.

If those stories are true, and I suspect that they are, let the chips fall where they may.
 

[RideTheGlide]

I'm in the position of finding both Hillary Clinton and Donal Trump entirely unfit for office--any office, but certainly not President of the United States.

Most of the time I vote, the only reason I don't hold my nose is that I need my sense of smell to help me find the least objectionable turd. The two party system sucks, but I won't throw my vote away in protest or the steamer that made my eyes water might get elected. So I voted for Clinton and then went home and took a shower.

[Weasels wake]

The most disturbing thing I see in this entire discussion thread is the poll at the top of the page where it shows there are still people who support Trump. I understand it is a very small sample size, but if this is any kind of reflection of the population at large then I’m just at a loss to understand. After everything Trump has done, it just astounds me that he would have any support at all.

His apparent lack of political-polish has rendered him possibly the most transparent US president ever; for many that translates into trust.

If you had said, "After everything that Trump has said or tweeted, I could see where you may have a point, but "done"?   What governmental thing has he done that negatively effected you in a personal way?
This is I'm pretty sure why you are surprised by Trump's support, it's that his supporters can separate what he says or tweets, from the things he accomplishes.  I don't think anybody, if they support him or not, are happy with most of his tweets or his thin skin, that he demonstrates with some of the things he says.  He doesn't have to express his feeling about everything, most things he should just let slide, but then again he's not a politician. 
So maybe that's the root of the dislike, he's not a politician, and he's definitely not politically correct.

he's accomplished deficits that all americans are responsible to pay for--a result of his tax handout to the wealthy

he's killed residential real estate throughout the country, especially in blue states--specific impact of tax handout

that's just off the top of my head

what good has he accomplished? for any but the very wealthy, who may wonder if the free $$ was worth it.....

he did beautifully in vietnam this week--i mean are you kidding?

list some credible "accomplishments"---his failings and continual lying to any who'll listen are so innumerable.....

gimme something real and really good that has actually resulted from policy he implemented....

Well, here I am, back to this thread, you ask for something real, I could make a list for you, it would be very easy, but I'm sure it would be met with "pfffft", you seem to be very dug in, so I will do something different.
Here is a link for you or anyone else who is willing, and brave enough, to poke their head outside of the liberal mainstream media bubble, long enough to have a look around. 
https://www.walkawaycampaign.com/testimonials
So at the request of this straight, libertarian/conservative, click on some of these testimonials, and read them, it will give you a better understanding of the thought processes behind people like myself.

[Area 10]

What on earth is that Walk Away drivel? It just looks a complete work of fiction to me. Can we please have some verifiable facts?

[RideTheGlide]

Well, here I am, back to this thread, you ask for something real, I could make a list for you, it would be very easy, but I'm sure it would be met with "pfffft", you seem to be very dug in, so I will do something different.
Here is a link for you or anyone else who is willing, and brave enough, to poke their head outside of the liberal mainstream media bubble, long enough to have a look around. 
https://www.walkawaycampaign.com/testimonials
So at the request of this straight, libertarian/conservative, click on some of these testimonials, and read them, it will give you a better understanding of the thought processes behind people like myself.

A list would have substance; the testimonials I read have little or none. Some Hillary hate and some surprise at how seriously some of us take what is happening to our country under Trump. I didn't see anyone explaining what policies of Trump's attracted them.

[Subber]

Hmmm....assuming you were for Hillary, what policies of hers did you like?
(or Bernie's?)

[eastbound]

whaaah???

this is what youre offering to describe specific programs that Trump put in place that have caused the "records in every category" jobs and pay gains that you claim to be fact?

youve linked a bunch of stories by gays who identify as republicans, who explain how hard it is for them to be appreciated by their fellow gays and others who dont accept anti-gay politics---i am sure it is tough for gays who embrace anti gay politics, to be welcomed by gays who dont support anti-gay politics---

i feel terribly for gays who embrace anti-gay politics, but what of all these "records in every category" job gains---got anything real on that?? or was that just a throwaway?

pence is anything but a decent guy................

[PonoBill]

Actually, I think it's a pretty interesting site. I'd like to see a site that goes the other way as well and compare. I don't really have anything to walk away from, I've always been politically conservative, always been a Republican. My thoughts about politics in the USA get modified constantly. I've been called wishy-washy, but not by anyone who actually knows me--I simply don't assume I'm right. I think the beliefs of the far left are idiotic and ignore history and the fundamental self-interest that humans all have. I don't think there has ever been a socialist state, just socialist revolutions that created a power vacuum that the meanest and best-prepared people rapidly fill. At the same time, it's hard for me to recognize the Republican party these days. Conservatism isn't supposed to be lightweight fascism with a double dose of mean. And it certainly doesn't have room for religious fanaticism.

The thing we all share in the USA is a belief that freedom and equality under the law are critical components of our republic. And that the constitution that spells out the nature of that freedom and equal treatment must be upheld.

I also understand that dealing with what are probably the biggest existential threats to humanity requires global responses, and that equates to leftist policy to most Republicans. It's why the Republican party can't afford to acknowledge the threats at all. It's why they focus on nonsensical issues like immigration, That certain blindness carries over to things like rambling on about Hillary and Bernie--neither of whom are in positions of significant power. It's simply a distraction. Most of the walkaway testimonies I read relate an incident that caused them to become disaffected with the democratic party. I couldn't help but wonder why they don't have similar moments watching the behavior of Republican leadership. I certainly do.

[eastbound]

here're a couple:

Bernie was one of the few to vote against the  w bush war in iraq, a war few consider other than a deadly tragic blunder......

Hillary was known to be a highly effective senator, earning kudos on both sides of the aisle for her ability to get things done........

stuff like sanctioning the crap out of Iran, collapsing their economy, and bringing them to the table to sign the nuclear arms deal that Trump tore up--a deal all of our allies have continually honored and call a good deal to this day--a deal they are glad to have in place--where all trump has said to explain is that "it's the worst deal ever". well, if keeping nukes out of iranian hands for 10 years, where they were en rte to being armed, is a bad deal, what's the better deal?--and, no, nuking iran is not a valid choice--anyway iran is still complying, and our allies are good with the deal--so, much as trump tore the deal up, it is still, effectively, in force--a good thing

hillary was sec of state who presided over our killing of OBL--contrast with the bushies who ignored bora bora, and invaded iraq, which had nil to do with 9/11

woops---most of the 9/11 terrorists came from saudi arabia---a country the repubs carry a whole lortta water for these days---like no problemo mano--aok to torture murder a journalist!!   those are exactly the values we want to propagate throughout the world!! makes an american proud!

[RideTheGlide]

Hmmm....assuming you were for Hillary, what policies of hers did you like?
(or Bernie's?)

I am closer to Bernie on policy, especially with respect to taxing corporations and high earners. I also support the idea of Medicare for All the way he first proposed it - lowering the qualifying age in steps while filling in the gaps in coverage.

I don't think people should have to start their careers deep in debt to get an education.

I support keeping the planet habitable for future generations. I support a woman's right to choice. I think the military budget is ridiculous and needs to be trimmed back. I think that serving in the military should be open to all. I think that racism, xenophobia, homophobia and misogyny have no place in government.

I think that the senate controlling the judiciary by withholding appointment power from one administration to provide it to another is violating the spirit of the constitution's checks and balances; a President abusing executive powers to work around both other branches is also trampling on the constitution.

I am strongly against gerrymandering. I live in a state where the GOP won 10 of 13 seats with 50.3% of the vote. That's not democracy as the forefathers intended.

I am against policies that purport to protect us from an insignificant risk at the polls by means that have been proven to reduce the number of minority voters that turn out. I am against limiting voting locations and days/hours (early voting) to blatantly reduce the number of working poor who are able to vote.

I want big money out of politics. I think Citizens United should be overturned.

If you support Trump, you are supporting someone in opposition to me on every single point. I see that as an immoral choice not because you disagree with me but because some of these are basic values. Trump is morally bankrupt. That's why I have a hard time accepting it when family and others I know well support Trump.

[Area 10]

Hmmm....assuming you were for Hillary, what policies of hers did you like?
(or Bernie's?)

I am closer to Bernie on policy, especially with respect to taxing corporations and high earners. I also support the idea of Medicare for All the way he first proposed it - lowering the qualifying age in steps while filling in the gaps in coverage.

I don't think people should have to start their careers deep in debt to get an education.

I support keeping the planet habitable for future generations. I support a woman's right to choice. I think the military budget is ridiculous and needs to be trimmed back. I think that serving in the military should be open to all. I think that racism, xenophobia, homophobia and misogyny have no place in government.

I think that the senate controlling the judiciary by withholding appointment power from one administration to provide it to another is violating the spirit of the constitution's checks and balances; a President abusing executive powers to work around both other branches is also trampling on the constitution.

I am strongly against gerrymandering. I live in a state where the GOP won 10 of 13 seats with 50.3% of the vote. That's not democracy as the forefathers intended.

I am against policies that purport to protect us from an insignificant risk at the polls by means that have been proven to reduce the number of minority voters that turn out. I am against limiting voting locations and days/hours (early voting) to blatantly reduce the number of working poor who are able to vote.

I want big money out of politics. I think Citizens United should be overturned.

If you support Trump, you are supporting someone in opposition to me on every single point. I see that as an immoral choice not because you disagree with me but because some of these are basic values. Trump is morally bankrupt. That's why I have a hard time accepting it when family and others I know well support Trump.

Beautifully put.

[Quickbeam]

Hmmm....assuming you were for Hillary, what policies of hers did you like?
(or Bernie's?)

I am closer to Bernie on policy, especially with respect to taxing corporations and high earners. I also support the idea of Medicare for All the way he first proposed it - lowering the qualifying age in steps while filling in the gaps in coverage.

I don't think people should have to start their careers deep in debt to get an education.

I support keeping the planet habitable for future generations. I support a woman's right to choice. I think the military budget is ridiculous and needs to be trimmed back. I think that serving in the military should be open to all. I think that racism, xenophobia, homophobia and misogyny have no place in government.

I think that the senate controlling the judiciary by withholding appointment power from one administration to provide it to another is violating the spirit of the constitution's checks and balances; a President abusing executive powers to work around both other branches is also trampling on the constitution.

I am strongly against gerrymandering. I live in a state where the GOP won 10 of 13 seats with 50.3% of the vote. That's not democracy as the forefathers intended.

I am against policies that purport to protect us from an insignificant risk at the polls by means that have been proven to reduce the number of minority voters that turn out. I am against limiting voting locations and days/hours (early voting) to blatantly reduce the number of working poor who are able to vote.

I want big money out of politics. I think Citizens United should be overturned.

If you support Trump, you are supporting someone in opposition to me on every single point. I see that as an immoral choice not because you disagree with me but because some of these are basic values. Trump is morally bankrupt. That's why I have a hard time accepting it when family and others I know well support Trump.

Wow! RideTheGlide. One of the best summaries I’ve seen on why someone is opposed to Trump. Well said.

[RideTheGlide]

Wow! RideTheGlide. One of the best summaries I’ve seen on why someone is opposed to Trump. Well said.

Thanks. My dislike for Trump and loss of respect for his supporters isn't just a knee jerk reaction. That wasn't even the whole list, just some of the more objectionable points. His bromances with brutal dictators turns my stomach also, but that's not really a policy position. He is completely out of his depth when it comes to the actual work of governing, which is an opinion and also not a policy position. If I lead with those, I am just another Trump basher. I am a Trump basher, but my distaste for his brand of politics is not baseless.