Poll

This is a uniquely informed and diverse group to survey on any question, most definitely this one.  At this point, for whom would you cast your ballot?

Trump
19 (46.3%)
Biden
9 (22%)
Sanders
8 (19.5%)
Booker
4 (9.8%)
Klobuchar
1 (2.4%)

Total Members Voted: 41

Voting closed: March 21, 2019, 04:39:47 PM

Author Topic: 2020 Vision  (Read 124035 times)

Quickbeam

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #465 on: April 07, 2019, 08:35:42 AM »
That’s supposed to be funny? It must suck to be as dumb as you.

Wow, not THAT is really funny.

I think you meant now instead of not and I agree. I don't like to make generalizations, but from personal experience with both discussions where I am participating or ones I just read, there does seem to be a significantly larger number of responses that are personal attacks posted by people who are right of center. To be fair, they are often provoked by posts using liberal tools like facts and math (there might be a little bias in this statement).

From my observations, these type of personal attacks seem to be coming mostly from one person. And I think they say a whole lot more about that particular person than any of those he is directing his attacks at.
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Area 10

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #466 on: April 07, 2019, 08:47:58 AM »
That’s not helpful RTG...
Pretty accurate though.

What exactly did you find accurate in his statement?
That on this forum, the majority of the crudest personal attacks have been written by those most sympathetic to the right of the political spectrum (and Trump supporters, specifically).

Bean

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #467 on: April 07, 2019, 12:48:22 PM »
That’s just opinion, do you have anything else?

Area 10

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #468 on: April 07, 2019, 01:08:01 PM »
That’s just opinion, do you have anything else?
Actually, you can quite easily read through this thread (and related ones, if you wish) and count up the number of vile posts, then determine the political affiliations of the authors, and then you will see this is fact, not opinion.

While it is not the case that all right wing posters on this forum write unpleasant and yobbish posts, it does seem that most of not all of those posts that meet that criterion are by written Trump supporters. However it is important to observe that “all tomatoes are red, but not all red things are tomatoes” as regards this situation: In other words this is not an observation aimed at all of those here who hold right wing views, only a subsection of them. However I would expect those who are right wing but not also yobbish to recognise that the current White House encumbant has attracted a certain element, and his particular style of discourse has perhaps emboldened that kind of behaviour. That seems to show itself on this forum. And *that* is an opinion, not a fact.

Bean

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #469 on: April 07, 2019, 04:14:57 PM »
So you lump ‘em all together?  I expect better from you A10 ( I’ve seen it). ;D

RideTheGlide

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #470 on: April 07, 2019, 04:49:34 PM »
That’s just opinion, do you have anything else?
Actually, you can quite easily read through this thread (and related ones, if you wish) and count up the number of vile posts, then determine the political affiliations of the authors, and then you will see this is fact, not opinion.

While it is not the case that all right wing posters on this forum write unpleasant and yobbish posts, it does seem that most of not all of those posts that meet that criterion are by written Trump supporters. However it is important to observe that “all tomatoes are red, but not all red things are tomatoes” as regards this situation: In other words this is not an observation aimed at all of those here who hold right wing views, only a subsection of them. However I would expect those who are right wing but not also yobbish to recognise that the current White House encumbant has attracted a certain element, and his particular style of discourse has perhaps emboldened that kind of behaviour. That seems to show itself on this forum. And *that* is an opinion, not a fact.

In my earlier post, I wasn't just referring to this forum and not to just a single poster. This seems to be pretty widespread. I agree with your opinion about why. Trump is saying things like "sick people"and "pencil neck" and hurling a host of other insults when talking about members of congress, judges and even members of his own administration. I also agree not all posters who are right of center do that.
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PonoBill

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #471 on: April 07, 2019, 07:28:28 PM »
Yup. It's not right or left, any more than Trump being a pathetic dick has much to do with right or left. He just is. It's asshole/not an asshole. Fundamental criteria. Trump spent most of his life ostensibly being a Democrat. It's not a matter of "Rider is a right-wing asshole". He's just an asshole. And apparently thrilled about it.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2019, 07:30:03 PM by PonoBill »
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Bean

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #472 on: April 07, 2019, 08:31:10 PM »
Hey, when you’re right your right (even if we sometimes lean a little left) ;D
« Last Edit: April 07, 2019, 08:44:41 PM by Bean »

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #473 on: April 08, 2019, 04:52:18 AM »
However it is important to observe that “all tomatoes are red, but not all red things are tomatoes” as regards this situation: In other words this is not an observation aimed at all of those here who hold right wing views, only a subsection of them.

Hillary forgot that with her basket of deplorables (ughh) comments and in doing so alienated reachable middle leaning Republicans.  The far right is unreachable.  These are your snowflake callers.  They thrive on the offense of the left and it strokes their actions.  On our side we have the metal straw crowd.  They wouldn't be caught dead eating a red tomato.  Only filthy rednecks that hate diversity would eat that non-heirloom crap. 

Is a group on one side being more racist, hateful, and intentionally vulgar.  Yes.  There is a result to Trump's actions.  It has been an OK light for a certain group to exercise their worst behavior.  Setting tone may be the President's most important function.  It is an odd thing to want to turn off the TV when the president is on because there are kids in the room, but I do.  That mocking smirk, insultary grin and uncontainable anger coupled with the incessant insults is the exact opposite of what I would want them exposed to.  The constant image of that angry orange face has had an effect.  The group which has found this liberating is not matched on the other side in number or in severity. 

« Last Edit: April 08, 2019, 04:56:00 AM by Admin »

Bean

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #474 on: April 08, 2019, 05:07:27 AM »
“...is a group...more racist..yes.”

That’s just inflammatory. And, demonstrates just how polarized we can be in our rhetoric once we get acclimated to a “popular” view.  This of course, is not limited to one side or the other.

Area 10

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #475 on: April 08, 2019, 05:14:13 AM »
There’s a similarity in the way politics seems to be going across the West right now. There are more and more extremist elements. For instance, the main opposition party in Germany is now a far right party, which would have seemed inconceivable only a few years ago. This is threatening German national security:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47822835

But this isn’t just true of Germany; it is happening across Europe:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2018/nov/20/how-populism-emerged-as-electoral-force-in-europe

The rise of populism, especially far-right populism, is threatening not only each individual country’s security (for instance, Brexit will leave the UK far most exposed to attacks from terrorists and international organised crime because we will leave the pan-European police and security organisations when we leave the EU), but also is threatening the existence of the European Union itself. Inevitably of course there is the damage that Brexit will do, but we are just at the vanguard of what seems to be a growing anti-EU feeling in eg. Germany, France and Itsly.

https://m.dw.com/en/how-europes-far-right-parties-view-the-eu/a-47078383

In some cases, the growth of the far right is being enabled by a growth in the far left (as in the UK, where the fate of the leader of our opposition (Corbyn) is largely controlled by a far-left group called Momentum): as extremism flourishes, it tends to flourish on all sides, and one tends to grow in response to the other.

This is happening in some places outside the EU too, in geographically close countries. For instance there is the growth of the far right in Israel. Young people in Israel are more right-wing than their parents, on the whole. Bibi is of course encouraging and benefitting from this, and is enabled by his bromance with Trump.

This (ie. the growth of populism) is a cultural movement, and is not localised to just one country. There are many interacting causes, including automation and the loss of manufacturing to the Far East (and consequent growth in the service sector, which some folk cannot adjust to; migration, immigration, and refugees; the growth of globalisation; the growth of zero hours contracts and the weakening of worker rights; taxation unfairness and the growth of companies who are bigger than countries in their economic influence; and a cultural reaction by white folk who are starting to find themselves a minority in their environments (substantially because the birth rate has been falling far faster in the richest countries than the poorest ones, across the world).

But all of this has been accelerated greatly by the “echo chamber” effect of social media, and the fact that now any nutter with half-baked extremist views can reach a gullible audience and convince them to vote against their own interests. Plus the growth of well-funded (sometimes state-funded) unscrupulous, and extremely highly skilled groups of computer and behavioural scientists who will interfere with social media to your advantage, if you pay them.

So, let’s indulge if what academics pretentiously call a “thought experiment”: let’s imagine that most developed countries continue to lurch progressively to the right, for many years. What will this lead to? What is the logical endpoint? What if Trump wins in 2020 and then the next president is even MORE right-wing? And the one after that? And the one after that.

I expect this to happen, unless there is a splitting of the right (and indeed, probably the left). It is not clear to me that old two-party systems will work any more. It may be that Republicans for instance need to start making a choice about whether they are happy to keep heading in the direction that Trump is taking the US government, or whether they need to cut the more far-right loose. It seems to me that many right-leaning governments and parties across the West are aware that a decision will have to be made soon. But they are afraid to make it, because for the moment it suits them. I don’t know what the trigger events will be that will cause the centre-right to separate from the far-right, but they must surely happen, or we will end up living in highly authoritarian societies with very restricted freedoms, and persecution of minorities. Like some countries in the Middle East, in other words.

I would be very happy if someone can give me an alternative vision of what life in the US or a European country will be like if we keep moving steadily and inexorably to the right. For those of you who are right-leaning, what would be too much for you? What would need to happen for you to say “that’s too much, we need to reel this back in and redirect”? Because, to be frank, if that isn’t Trump, then I’m at a loss as to what it might be. The numbers at the top of this thread say that you are nowhere near that point yet. So, how much will be too much? What are your “red lines”, you wouldn’t cross?
« Last Edit: April 08, 2019, 05:16:22 AM by Area 10 »

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #476 on: April 08, 2019, 06:05:51 AM »
“...is a group...more racist..yes.”

That’s just inflammatory. And, demonstrates just how polarized we can be in our rhetoric once we get acclimated to a “popular” view.  This of course, is not limited to one side or the other.

Are you saying that you do not believe that there is a racist element among Trump supporters that have become emboldened by his rhetoric and actions? 

You won't find an equal racist, misogynistic faction on the left.  It is important to point that this is deviant behavior and to remind ourselves and the world that there is a group (on both sides) that does not agree with the president on this. 

This is not my view because it is popular.  I've watched the president speak on Charlottesville etc.  He is not speaking in code.  Defend that as you may, it is racism.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2019, 06:22:06 AM by Admin »

Bean

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #477 on: April 08, 2019, 06:24:50 AM »
Are you saying that you do not believe that there is a racist element among Trump supporters that have become emboldened by his rhetoric and actions?

Racist element? Yes, but not the entire "group" of conservatives.

A-10 is on the right track, we need to look closer at the actual issues not just supporting a party view. 

Tom

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #478 on: April 08, 2019, 07:15:30 AM »
Not all Trump supporters are racist, BUT every racist I know strongly supports Trump

Bean

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #479 on: April 08, 2019, 07:33:08 AM »
You don't need to be affiliated with any one party or individual to be offended by racism.   

 


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