Poll

This is a uniquely informed and diverse group to survey on any question, most definitely this one.  At this point, for whom would you cast your ballot?

Trump
19 (46.3%)
Biden
9 (22%)
Sanders
8 (19.5%)
Booker
4 (9.8%)
Klobuchar
1 (2.4%)

Total Members Voted: 41

Voting closed: Today at 04:39:47 PM

Author Topic: 2020 Vision  (Read 12242 times)

RideTheGlide

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #30 on: February 21, 2019, 12:50:35 PM »
What's the motivation to strive to succeed if everything is handed to you free? My daughter worked her butt off in school so she could go to a good college. Good thing she got a scholarship, because we couldn't afford the schools she was applying for. She's a driven person, and earned it. I've been self-employed my whole life, and worked my butt off for 40 years straight. I never expected any handouts or free anything. Everything I have I earned.

Land of the Free means freedom of.... freedom to.... Not I want for free!

TallDude, these things like "free" healthcare or college aren't free. They're paid by taxes. It's not a handout.

If you didn't earn it, it's a handout. If you work very hard in high school and do all that you can, you can receive a college education that is paid for through endowments not taxes. If you kinda apply yourself in high school then don't expect anything. Being self employed I paid a lot of taxes. I own a home which I pay a lot of tax on. I don't make enough to pay for both of my kids college, let alone one kid. Because I make enough money, I don't get any benefit's as in free health care or college. People who make a lot less that I do, or people who do nothing, receive benefits from the taxes I pay. Those tax benefits like welfare and food stamps sustain a good percentage of our voting public. Those low or no income people can walk in or be wheeled into just about any ER and be cared for. Child birth, trama surgery, etc. and they will not pay a dime. I have a home and an income, so I pay full price for my care with no benefit from me paying taxes?
Is it the middle class that wants free health care? They are talking about taxing internet use and phone texting. Maybe that will help pay for middle class healthcare?

There are a ton of skilled labor jobs that pay very well, but young Americans  want a degree and an office job. They all deserve it I'm sure. We need more Plumbers, Carpenters, Welder's, Electronics Tech's, Machinist, etc.  but our youth is apparently better than that. A good friend of mine is an electrician who has worked by himself most of his career. He's owns a number of homes and a commercial building in Southern California. He doesn't even have an associates degree, but he smart about he business and works super hard. He's a tax payer and has never put his hand out but to shake someone else's hand.

The Internet Tax Freedom Act bars taxation on internet access. The question in CA was whether or not texts are telecommunications, which is taxed pretty much everywhere to pay for government expenses related to telecommunications. The FCC declared that texts are an information service and not telecommunications and the matter has been dropped.

Yes, in polling the vast majority of voters want Medicare for all or a similar program. (https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/403248-poll-seventy-percent-of-americans-support-medicare-for-all). I have seen other polls that show a decided margin in the middle class; it's almost impossible to get that 70% overall without it. Medicare for all makes sense as a way to ease the transition by backing down the age and adding services over time. It has issues that need fixing, but it is a solution most people understand and support.
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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #31 on: February 21, 2019, 12:57:15 PM »
This is always a great resource for the govenment #'s (and they keep making it better).   http://www.usdebtclock.org/

SlatchJim

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #32 on: February 21, 2019, 01:37:57 PM »
I used to think that political parties were like football or soccer teams, in that they'd run someone out to "set the edge" at the limit of the action to force the play back inside where there'd be more people to help out.  I thought Occasio Perez, Trump, Sanders, Shumer, and others were edge setters.  Once again, I'm wrong.  The game seems to have changed and the middle is empty, diplomacy is a 4 letter word (well, 9 technically), and it's a race to the nutty extreme.  In the meantime, real issues, meat and potato governance, setting a sound budget and adhering to it, being a good neighbor and reliable ally, being accountable and not self serving; these concepts are as foreign as asking "not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country."

That said, Bill Weld looks interesting.  ;)

eastbound

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #33 on: February 21, 2019, 02:01:19 PM »
What's the motivation to strive to succeed if everything is handed to you free? My daughter worked her butt off in school so she could go to a good college. Good thing she got a scholarship, because we couldn't afford the schools she was applying for. She's a driven person, and earned it. I've been self-employed my whole life, and worked my butt off for 40 years straight. I never expected any handouts or free anything. Everything I have I earned.

Land of the Free means freedom of.... freedom to.... Not I want for free!

but TD, what if you were seriously injured while self-employed, such that you couldnt support yourself and your family??

you'd just let your family starve, rather than seek public assistance??

there are people who, through no fault of their own, get into economic trouble---lots of them---where their industry shuts down, where we have a financial crisis like that of 09, with mass layoffs and plummeting home prices---or key household breadwinner gets sick---id be ashamed if, given our wealth we just say "tough luck" to those folk

and it could be you or me in one good stroke of bad luck





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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #34 on: February 21, 2019, 02:17:31 PM »
My own experience is a combination, which is probably true of many (at least the fortunate) -  Yes, worked really hard out of a modest background, without 'handouts' whatever those may be, but was not hindered by really adverse environmental conditions. Maybe can call it privilege, but it's really the privilege to be able to work hard and succeed without things outside your control holding you back.  So I feel lucky that way. 
« Last Edit: February 21, 2019, 02:20:12 PM by Dusk Patrol »
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Ichabod Spoonbill

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #35 on: February 21, 2019, 02:29:02 PM »
My own experience is a combination, which is probably true of many (at least the fortunate) -  Yes, worked really hard out of a modest background, without 'handouts' whatever those may be, but was not hindered by really adverse environmental conditions, like Ich. Maybe can call it privilege, but it's really the privilege to be able to work hard and succeed without things outside your control holding you back.  So I feel lucky that way.

I wouldn't have minded a couple of handouts.

The point I was making earlier with TallDude is that I think his philosophy comes with a morality and expectation, which I respect. Families help each other. People can succeed through hard work. The world rewards effort. What I'm saying is that sh-t doesn't always go down that way. I think policy has to take that into account. I went to one of the top public high schools in the country, but that pedigree didn't help me in my post high school struggles. Nor did getting a 4.0 average.

Adversity also has a way of breaking a person. (Speaking from experience here.) When you get hurt or disappointed or humiliated or violated or manipulated over and over again, that creates mental scars that you can't push your way through. These get in the way of succeeding and doing well in so many ways.
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eastbound

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #36 on: February 21, 2019, 02:34:09 PM »
but our "kleptocratic fake free market health care" is totally inefficient, especially compared to Medicare and all single-payer systems in western europe--surprise, given the pork built in by bought politics--and surprise given the large$$e with the executive suites of healthcare corps

if US single payer matches the efficiency of medicare---(which covers the most expensive of americans---like, it's no mystery old folk cause huge portion of our overall US med cost--what a coincidence the healthcare industry doesnt have to provide care for the most expensive americans who need care--now that's some tasty pork!)---and matches the efficiency of european and canadian single payer, we will be fine.

and hopefully the quality of care we get will improve--the data is clear: we pay shitloads more for our care than in single-payer developed countries--and our care is quite poor comparatively

if youre rich, us care is the very best---working or middle class, not so great, at least compared to canada and europe--if youre poor US healthcare is deadly
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PonoBill

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #37 on: February 21, 2019, 02:47:12 PM »
What's the motivation to strive to succeed if everything is handed to you free? My daughter worked her butt off in school so she could go to a good college. Good thing she got a scholarship, because we couldn't afford the schools she was applying for. She's a driven person, and earned it. I've been self-employed my whole life, and worked my butt off for 40 years straight. I never expected any handouts or free anything. Everything I have I earned.

Land of the Free means freedom of.... freedom to.... Not I want for free!

TallDude, these things like "free" healthcare or college aren't free. They're paid by taxes. It's not a handout.

Similar story: my father who was highly educated was also mentally ill, addicted, and poor. I went to some of the very best public schools, but when college came around I was screwed. There wasn't money for that, and when I tried to work for school, my father stole my earnings. The idea that working for these things works for some people, but not everybody. Deserving people are denied a good education because of circumstances beyond their control. Even if you go to night school and do that, you start off years behind your peers. It took me 15 years to get my BA, all because a situation I did not create. A few of those "free" things would have made my life much better. It would have changed my life. I know I would have had a different career.

I know there are people who might take advantage of the system, there are many who would not. I count myself in that category.
Very true; everyone does not have equal opportunities. Some of that is random, some is systemic. It's like the old adage that everyone can succeed if they work hard. There aren't enough slots open as you continue moving up. As you progress to better paying jobs, it's a triangle. There is only one desk in each McDonald's and that's just an example; there are also lots of cubes and only four corner offices in some large corporate settings.

The old adage remains true--at least currently. The open question is "how hard"? If you really want to succeed, then it takes what it takes. I just had this conversation with my daughter, who after a very late start being married to a domineering loser, years of working hard and taking risks, just landed her dream job. I told her she isn't at the finish line, she's finally made it to the start. She's going to be working full time, raising two boys as a single mom, while she is also taking advanced paramedic training. I told her she needs to knock the expectations of everyone she works for and with right out of the park. She got it. It wasn't what she wanted to hear, but she got it. How many people can do that? How many people will? She will.

Most of the serious wealth in America is inherited, but not all of it. We really do have unlimited opportunity, but that's not for everyone. Simply working three jobs won't do it, as millions of people have proven. Who takes a job at McDonalds and knocks it out of the park? The person who winds up running the joint. Most people do their best to do the least they can get by with. The suckier the job, the better you have to be to stand out. It takes what it takes.

Unfortunately, that may not be true for long, There are Radiologists graduating this year who will probably not have a job someday soon. I'd hate to have spend half my life building up an independent trucking firm to see autonomous trucks coming. "Disruptive technology" is a term few people use with any sense of dread, but it means that both physical and cognitive job functions can be replaced--and probably will be. MAGA-flavored conservatism is precisely the wrong tactic to deal with what's coming and socialism is equally devoid of solutions.

I don't see any names on that list that even have a clue. I sure hope we wind up with someone who at least understands the problems.
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eastbound

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #38 on: February 21, 2019, 03:00:01 PM »
great advice for your daughter, PB--i have delivered similar to mine--and you gotta just do best at every job, good or bad--at mcd's? if youre cheerful and effective, you never know what customer might notice you and hire you for a better job--now it's admittedly rare, but it can happen--one thing is certain, if you arent in that game puttting your best foot forward, bc youve got a shitty job and youre hopelessly moping along getting by, aint no opportunity gon knock for you

but that great kid, who is doing best can, with everything in front of him/her, can get sick, can have family issues and end up homeless, etc etc

we gotta care for that kid--we cant have what we have, and we cant have people flying around in private jets and yachts, with that great kid in the gutter hungry--i cant stomach that


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NEplay

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #39 on: February 21, 2019, 03:36:50 PM »
Hey Guys, I want to say something and I know this group can hear it. Can we move past all you have to is "earn it"? Talldude, I am guessing you are a white, straight male. And I know you are a badass from pictures and your writing and there is no doubt you worked very hard and your daughter too. You did not compete on an even playing field period!  You were highly advantaged even if you started at zero and you were way ahead of ALL women, people of color and gays and god forbid some combination.   

My father was at the beginning of his sophomore of college at Lehigh(all male) when his dad at 39 dropped dead of heart attack. My grandfather was a GE salesman with no college education and did not leave much. Lehigh said my dad had to hit a certain grade point and they waived the tuition for 3 years. His two younger sisters were not so lucky. He thinks he is far superior to them. Hmmm. Just illustrating a point.

People need to work hard. Word up. I fear Pono's numbers about healthcare and it is hard to see a solution. My mom and I were just talking about when I was kid and she was a kid we just paid for all healthcare except cancer and car crashes. You need some disposable income to live in that environment. We need better wealth distribution. Nothing in my comments or anybody else's comments are talking about giving away shit for free. Although giving away money to those with nothing has proven over and over again to be cheaper and better for the economy than creating infrastructure that gets bogged down in stasis, politics and corruption but that is a discussion for another time.

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TallDude

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #40 on: February 21, 2019, 04:59:48 PM »
NEplay, You got the obvious part right about me. I am Male, of northern European descent and I am attracted to females. Bad ass... no. Risk taker.. Yes. I am an artist and I play the piano. Not for a living, just because I love music. Everyone thinks I played basketball, but I was in the high school band and surfed, skateboarded, and was Evil Knievel on my bike. I don't own a gun, and my parents are liberals to the core. My mom was the president the local ESL program and is still active into her 80's. My dad was beat up a number of times when he was a kid because he and his parents were Russian immigrants who everyone call commies. They had no money ever. My dad joined a carpenters union and raised a family. My family is mixed with gay Vegans, and non-white people whom I all love. I play the piano for them. When I say work hard, I mean don't be a male or female nurse, complain about having to deal with annoying sick people all while checking Facebook every 3 minutes. That's what the young ones do. My nephew is a surveyor, and he posts on Facebook all throughout the day while he's on the clock! Put the phone down and work. That's my point.   

RideTheGlide

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #41 on: February 21, 2019, 05:17:23 PM »
What's the motivation to strive to succeed if everything is handed to you free? My daughter worked her butt off in school so she could go to a good college. Good thing she got a scholarship, because we couldn't afford the schools she was applying for. She's a driven person, and earned it. I've been self-employed my whole life, and worked my butt off for 40 years straight. I never expected any handouts or free anything. Everything I have I earned.

Land of the Free means freedom of.... freedom to.... Not I want for free!

TallDude, these things like "free" healthcare or college aren't free. They're paid by taxes. It's not a handout.

Similar story: my father who was highly educated was also mentally ill, addicted, and poor. I went to some of the very best public schools, but when college came around I was screwed. There wasn't money for that, and when I tried to work for school, my father stole my earnings. The idea that working for these things works for some people, but not everybody. Deserving people are denied a good education because of circumstances beyond their control. Even if you go to night school and do that, you start off years behind your peers. It took me 15 years to get my BA, all because a situation I did not create. A few of those "free" things would have made my life much better. It would have changed my life. I know I would have had a different career.

I know there are people who might take advantage of the system, there are many who would not. I count myself in that category.
Very true; everyone does not have equal opportunities. Some of that is random, some is systemic. It's like the old adage that everyone can succeed if they work hard. There aren't enough slots open as you continue moving up. As you progress to better paying jobs, it's a triangle. There is only one desk in each McDonald's and that's just an example; there are also lots of cubes and only four corner offices in some large corporate settings.

The old adage remains true--at least currently. The open question is "how hard"? If you really want to succeed, then it takes what it takes. I just had this conversation with my daughter, who after a very late start being married to a domineering loser, years of working hard and taking risks, just landed her dream job. I told her she isn't at the finish line, she's finally made it to the start. She's going to be working full time, raising two boys as a single mom, while she is also taking advanced paramedic training. I told her she needs to knock the expectations of everyone she works for and with right out of the park. She got it. It wasn't what she wanted to hear, but she got it. How many people can do that? How many people will? She will.

Most of the serious wealth in America is inherited, but not all of it. We really do have unlimited opportunity, but that's not for everyone. Simply working three jobs won't do it, as millions of people have proven. Who takes a job at McDonalds and knocks it out of the park? The person who winds up running the joint. Most people do their best to do the least they can get by with. The suckier the job, the better you have to be to stand out. It takes what it takes.

Unfortunately, that may not be true for long, There are Radiologists graduating this year who will probably not have a job someday soon. I'd hate to have spend half my life building up an independent trucking firm to see autonomous trucks coming. "Disruptive technology" is a term few people use with any sense of dread, but it means that both physical and cognitive job functions can be replaced--and probably will be. MAGA-flavored conservatism is precisely the wrong tactic to deal with what's coming and socialism is equally devoid of solutions.

I don't see any names on that list that even have a clue. I sure hope we wind up with someone who at least understands the problems.
I respectfully disagree, Pono. There just aren't enough opportunities to go around for one thing; the math just cannot work. Then there are those with varying types and degrees of handicaps. Some people really do give it their all and still don't get the opportunity they need to better their situation.

As far as disruptive technology, the only thing I see that can work is socialistic in nature. If we develop the technology and reap the rewards, there will be less work that needs to be done. The old "protestant work ethic" - "everyone needs to earn it" - is a fine ideal but we need to face the fact that there already isn't enough work to go around. Not rolling tech out so that people can do busy work is ridiculous, but the problem with automating jobs out of existence in a capitalistic society is that the people displaced reap no benefit; just the opposite in fact. It would be one more thing aiding and abetting the concentration of wealth. We need to recognize that in the future not everyone will be able to work, at least not full time. We will have to take care of some people with no expectation that they will ever work full time. That's going to be really expensive and heavy taxes on commerce and/or those who do well is the only way to fund it. It's not because I am far left (which I freely admit) in this case. I just don't see how anything else can work, short of Neo-Luddism, which is a really bad idea.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2019, 05:19:02 PM by RideTheGlide »
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eastbound

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #42 on: February 21, 2019, 05:25:46 PM »
This is always a great resource for the govenment #'s (and they keep making it better).   http://www.usdebtclock.org/

but deficits dont matter anymore................

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #43 on: February 21, 2019, 05:36:29 PM »
Random Thoughts:

I have 3 daughters, I would not say they have any disadvantages to pursue the life and career they want. They have a disadvantage in lifting a heavy object, but an advantage in emotional intelligence over me. So it evens out. I fully expect them to earn huge salaries based on their ability to get shit done.

The biggest disadvantage in America is being born without 2 stable parents. I'm not saying divorced or married, I'm just saying stable.

The next biggest disadvantage is being an addict (but they go hand in hand)

Solve 10% of those and entitlements and healthcare become a much smaller issue.






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RideTheGlide

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Re: 2020 Vision
« Reply #44 on: February 21, 2019, 05:45:32 PM »
This is always a great resource for the govenment #'s (and they keep making it better).   http://www.usdebtclock.org/

but deficits dont matter anymore................
It's crazy that we get excited when we lower the deficit - just increasing the debt at a slower rate but still increasing it. The last president to have a surplus budget was Bill Clinton; he actually decreased the debt ever so slightly one year.

Sometimes I think they let it get so far out of hand because so many people don't believe in what they can't understand. When it's a number so big you can't really wrap your mind around it, it's almost like it doesn't exist.
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