Author Topic: Here comes the Chinese copycats of the Lift e-Foil...  (Read 2014 times)

805StandUp

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Here comes the Chinese copycats of the Lift e-Foil...
« on: January 04, 2019, 10:14:03 AM »
Much better price point, though they can do that when they didn't have to really do the R&D...

https://electrek.co/2019/01/04/waydoo-flyer-electric-hydrofoil/

Evan Lloyd

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Re: Here comes the Chinese copycats of the Lift e-Foil...
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2019, 09:31:56 PM »
It wont be long before we see Gofoil rip-offs.  How many SUP companies are on Alibaba?  Hundreds. Its just a matter of time.

PonoBill

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Re: Here comes the Chinese copycats of the Lift e-Foil...
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2019, 10:27:42 AM »
I've been watching the progression for about two years. The companies have actually done a lot of R&D to get them to be reliable and effective. Yes, they copied the concept, but surprisingly they didn't just copy the product. Lift created the opportunity when they priced their foil at $12K. I suspect they are building them a few at a time, though they call it "high production". Tough to actually scale production in the US, or even PR. But really, it's a motor and a prop. What R&D?

I'm not familiar with the Waydoo. Looks clumsy. The prop has no guard! What's with that? (oops, I see their new website shows one) The Hisun products look more refined. From 2018. Their newer designs are pretty slick. Andy Lee, who is a Facebook friend, is the owner I think, and he's been working on this stuff a long time. They did a SUP fin with a prop quite some time ago. I almost bought one, thinking it would help me downwind foil (get me off the water without exhausting me), but the motor is too small.


Jet skis range from 5K to 18K with far more sophistication and material cost. $12k for a board, foil and a weenie electric motor and battery?

The big step for a guy like me would be making an eFoil that can be shut off when you catch a bump. Unlikely with a prop. I'd pay for an eFoil that did that, but it's going to take a lot more work and the market would be much smaller. Drag is a big deal for a foil. Catch your leash around the stabilizer and try to take off. You've got a clumsy surfboard just from that little bit of drag.

GoFoil, by the way, is a Chinese company. Yeah, Alex is here in Maui doing the R&D, but everything other than prototypes and development products are made in China. Alex is doing exactly the right thing--using his first-mover status to build his brand value. For the size of the company, his results have been outstanding. He priced it right and that makes all the difference. You can't price to recover R&D cost--that has to happen when the brand is successful enough to fend off competitors. The price difference for a foil you know is going to work, that all your buddies are using, that isn't slicing their legs off or breaking without reason--is exactly right. Enough to fluff the margin to cover distribution and retail, but low enough to make a substitution of a cheap knockoff unlikely. GoFoil's real competition comes from established players with the same cost of sales structure that GoFoil has, so they can deal with that effectively. Alex and company are not dummies.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2019, 11:02:40 AM by PonoBill »
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RideTheGlide

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Re: Here comes the Chinese copycats of the Lift e-Foil...
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2019, 11:47:52 AM »
An eFoil would need numbers here in NC. No exceptions for length or purpose other than unmanned RC hobby boats; if it is propelled by a motor, gas or electric, it needs to be registered, display the numbers and current sticker.
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PonoBill

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Re: Here comes the Chinese copycats of the Lift e-Foil...
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2019, 02:37:23 PM »
Yeah, that's a big issue. People bought jetpump powered boards thinking they'd be surfing wherever they wanted. Nope. Regulated almost everywhere but inland.
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RideTheGlide

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Re: Here comes the Chinese copycats of the Lift e-Foil...
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2019, 03:45:33 PM »
Yeah, that's a big issue. People bought jetpump powered boards thinking they'd be surfing wherever they wanted. Nope. Regulated almost everywhere but inland.
Regulated inland here in NC; pretty much follow USCG. In FL, I think they can even regulate your private inland lake if it is over a certain size. Not sure they actually do unless there is some sort of public access like memberships, lots for sale, access to ramp for a fee or whatever.
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805StandUp

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Re: Here comes the Chinese copycats of the Lift e-Foil...
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2019, 08:25:38 AM »
I've been watching the progression for about two years. The companies have actually done a lot of R&D to get them to be reliable and effective. Yes, they copied the concept, but surprisingly they didn't just copy the product. Lift created the opportunity when they priced their foil at $12K. I suspect they are building them a few at a time, though they call it "high production". Tough to actually scale production in the US, or even PR. But really, it's a motor and a prop. What R&D?

Well if they enhanced the durability/longevity and brought the price down to under $5K that would be something.  Have you tried the Lift, Bill?  I had a half-demo a number of months back and here were my observations:
* It is a blast to ride!  It is interestingly less about foot position and weighting and mostly about trigger modulation.  It also lifts at a much higher speed than our Go-foils.  Agree that regulation is one of the biggest barriers to entry for the market as most of the harbors around here have a 5mph limit on motorized vehicles and the Lift doesn't lift (pun intended) until higher speeds (and I am not sure even the M280 lifts below 5mph?) 
* Because of the batteries it is heavier than our boards.  I think it weighs about 70 pounds which means unlike our foilboards it sinks when the motor is not on.  I think the battery itself weighs about 35 lbs.
* The reason I had a half-demo is that the unit had a short due to a crack in the seal to the CPU unit.  After a fiddling with it the seller was able to get it started but when I came in for a break he wasn't able to start it up again.  We examined it and apparently water getting into the battery area is fairly typical but keeping water out of the CPU is key.  Lift was going to get it fixed asap.


Beasho

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Re: Here comes the Chinese copycats of the Lift e-Foil...
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2019, 08:32:29 AM »
, , ,
Jet skis range from 5K to 18K with far more sophistication and material cost. $12k for a board, foil and a weenie electric motor and battery?
. . . .

Pono's point is spot on.  This is way too expensive.  SUPER Cool!  But expensive.

Maybe if they  can get it down to the sub $4K or below.  About what an electric bike costs.  Frankly there are VERY few moving parts.  Way less than an electric bike.

The foil could be heavy, crap PVC.  The advantage in drag reduction is HUGE.   You can add a few LBS and be OK with the design from less expensive parts.

jondrums

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Re: Here comes the Chinese copycats of the Lift e-Foil...
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2019, 10:24:15 PM »
it sinks when the motor is not on

 :o :o :o  Really??  That sounds crazy - if you run it out of battery out on the water it'll sink unless you swim it back in holding it up???  I can hardly believe that this would be considered acceptable.

805StandUp

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Re: Here comes the Chinese copycats of the Lift e-Foil...
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2019, 11:10:22 PM »
it sinks when the motor is not on

 :o :o :o  Really??  That sounds crazy - if you run it out of battery out on the water it'll sink unless you swim it back in holding it up???  I can hardly believe that this would be considered acceptable.

Sorry.  I should say with my weight on it, it sinks below the water line... I can't kneel or stand on it when it is still like I can my regular foil board.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2019, 11:13:45 PM by 805StandUp »

Fishman

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Re: Here comes the Chinese copycats of the Lift e-Foil...
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2019, 02:24:24 AM »
Nice review video of efoils just came out yesterday but it looks 8 of the top 10 aren't available yet.
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Dwight (DW)

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Re: Here comes the Chinese copycats of the Lift e-Foil...
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2019, 05:28:02 AM »
I just talked to a buddy who spent 3 weeks teaching people to ride the electric foil. He said its not for us. Boring as crap, none of the true feel and thrill of surf foiling. It also drops like a rock if you let off the throttle.

oldfartsuperdad

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Re: Here comes the Chinese copycats of the Lift e-Foil...
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2019, 08:15:36 AM »
There is an efoil forum and several folks are working on diy projects....some with more success than others.  Agree that in principle the mechanics are fairly simple.  3D printing has helped and motors and electronics are easy to come by.  VeConcepts is about to launch their version of the Lift and will be wel under the Lift pricing.  They have designed a streamlined jet unit with integrated impeller and looks to have very low drag compared to ducted props.  I continue to watch the Chinese versions...several are getting close to production....
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Beasho

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Re: Here comes the Chinese copycats of the Lift e-Foil...
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2019, 09:19:55 AM »
How about a Tuttle based Mast, Engine and Wing with a battery pack that could attach to the deck of your board?

This way we don't need to reinvest in the HULL all over again.  Keep costs DOWN, use existing infrastructure . . .

PonoBill

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Re: Here comes the Chinese copycats of the Lift e-Foil...
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2019, 10:17:07 AM »
That's what most of the DIY approach has been, but most production boards put the batteries inside the board to clear the deck.
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