Author Topic: Endurance  (Read 2267 times)

Cruisinby

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Endurance
« on: December 16, 2018, 08:45:45 PM »
Which is a better way to guage a good work out, distance or time ?   Usually in smooth in water with little to no wind.  I use to do 45 min to an hr sometimes 1 1/2 every other day.   I use those days to keep prepped for the days the waves get good.

Im 5'10" 200 lbs pretty good shape, what area size paddle 90-100 sq" are people using for flat water ?   I have my preferred surf paddle dialed. 

Thanks
« Last Edit: December 16, 2018, 08:49:55 PM by Cruisinby »

RideTheGlide

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Re: Endurance
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2018, 05:36:07 AM »
That's a tough question in a vacuum. For something like running, distance is absolutely the better measure. But you can't glide while running. I have two boards - a short iSUP with the glide profile of a tennis ball and a 14' touring board. The same effort in a single stroke is going to propel the Glide a hell of a lot further than the iSUP. If you really want any accuracy, I think you need a HRM or at least something to capture SPM, though even with strokes it won't be apples to apples. Using my boards as examples again, if I sprint paddle both boards, past maybe the 3rd stroke there is no way I can put as much effort in on the Glide. It won't slow down enough between strokes. When I do cardio at the gym, I mostly use time and just make sure I am putting in a solid effort. I lost a lot of weight and I still track everything carefully to keep from gaining it back. Figuring out burn from exercise with any accuracy is a hot topic. It is anything but an exact science.

ETA - I kind of rambled, but I think time is the better measure given fairly consistent effort, which is what a HRM would help you track. What you really want is V02.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2018, 05:39:13 AM by RideTheGlide »
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Cruisinby

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Re: Endurance
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2018, 08:36:44 AM »
In flat water 90 % of the time I am on my 12 FT PSH gun that has lots of glide.   Paddling the longer board has to have a more positive feel.   I kind of slacked off the last 6 months chasing waves, now I'm interested in getting back into the longer paddles.    Longer solo paddles have spiritual benefits as well physical.   Thanks for the info !

ukgm

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Re: Endurance
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2018, 09:13:18 AM »
1) For something like running, distance is absolutely the better measure.

2) I think you need a HRM or at least something to capture SPM, though even with strokes it won't be apples to apples.

3) ETA - I kind of rambled, but I think time is the better measure given fairly consistent effort, which is what a HRM would help you track.

4) What you really want is V02.

1) I disagree. Both weather and the route can affect effort massively. Time is aloof and objective of all of that plus gives you a controlled method of increasing training stimulation and progression. In addition to this though, it may well be worth also supplementing this with a power meter such as the 'Stryd' system.

2) I've fallen out of love with HRM's in most sports I've done. Stroke rate is typically used in other rowing or paddle sports but that completely relies on you having a stable technique and doesn't account for fatigue degrading the quality. It's a shame the One Giant Leap power meter never got off the ground. That would have been really good. In lieu of all this, a stroke rate meter coupled with a HRM together works ok for distance based paddles.

3) I agree.

4) I would suggest not. Not only is Vo2 max hard to measure reliably outside of a lab, it's not a metric that provides a great deal of actionable intelligence for an amateur athlete to act upon. It's also only part of the equation of an endurance athlete. If you can lay your hands on a SUP erg though, that might be a simpler way of gauging improvement for the hobby athlete via a time trial or ramp test.

RideTheGlide

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Re: Endurance
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2018, 10:14:30 AM »
1) For something like running, distance is absolutely the better measure.

2) I think you need a HRM or at least something to capture SPM, though even with strokes it won't be apples to apples.

3) ETA - I kind of rambled, but I think time is the better measure given fairly consistent effort, which is what a HRM would help you track.

4) What you really want is V02.

1) I disagree. Both weather and the route can affect effort massively. Time is aloof and objective of all of that plus gives you a controlled method of increasing training stimulation and progression. In addition to this though, it may well be worth also supplementing this with a power meter such as the 'Stryd' system.

2) I've fallen out of love with HRM's in most sports I've done. Stroke rate is typically used in other rowing or paddle sports but that completely relies on you having a stable technique and doesn't account for fatigue degrading the quality. It's a shame the One Giant Leap power meter never got off the ground. That would have been really good. In lieu of all this, a stroke rate meter coupled with a HRM together works ok for distance based paddles.

3) I agree.

4) I would suggest not. Not only is Vo2 max hard to measure reliably outside of a lab, it's not a metric that provides a great deal of actionable intelligence for an amateur athlete to act upon. It's also only part of the equation of an endurance athlete. If you can lay your hands on a SUP erg though, that might be a simpler way of gauging improvement for the hobby athlete via a time trial or ramp test.

1 - Note that I said better not best. The question was whether distance or time was better. I think distance is better than time for running. Running 5 miles at 6 mph or 7.5 mph (25% faster) results in roughly the same burn (expended energy). Running the same amount of time, you would expend about 25% more energy running at 7.5 mph versus 6 mph. So I still think distance is a better measure than time for running.

2 - The reason I like HRM better than SPM is what I mentioned a couple of times - glide. How much resistance you are getting on each stroke is affected by how much the board slowed down and how hard it is to get back to speed. I think HR is closer to being an absolute measure. For most of us, if you keep it over 150 for an extended amount of time, you were pushing pretty hard; maybe a little higher for you younger guys (170 is red line for my age).

3 - Oddly, it was meant to clarify point 1.

4 - That bordered on sarcasm. I know V02 max is not something you can measure easily. It's pretty easy to find out what it means on the net though.

I have tried really hard to come up with some reasonable system of computing burn but haven't had much success. I am trying to keep weight off after being overweight for several years and losing ~65 to get my BMI under 25. I have stayed under 25 for 9 months but started by dropping further and then trying to log everything - what I eat and what I burn - adding in the mysterious BMR and trying to make it zero out.  I always gained back before by trying to do this naturally. I am accepting that I can't, but tracking it is no exact science.
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RideTheGlide

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Re: Endurance
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2018, 10:25:25 AM »
In flat water 90 % of the time I am on my 12 FT PSH gun that has lots of glide.   Paddling the longer board has to have a more positive feel.   I kind of slacked off the last 6 months chasing waves, now I'm interested in getting back into the longer paddles.    Longer solo paddles have spiritual benefits as well physical.   Thanks for the info !

I love long solo paddles. During the summer, I would often paddle 6 to 10 miles (and a couple of times over 10 - longest was 14) on my crappy little iSUP at ~3.3 mph. This coming year I hope to increase speed and distance on the Glide, though a lot of long paddles I want to do will require another paddler to be safe; I got a seaworthy board for a reason...
2016 Naish Glide 14x30 GTW
2017 GoPlus 9'9" x 6" iSUP (generic low end all around)

ukgm

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Re: Endurance
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2018, 10:46:13 AM »
1) For something like running, distance is absolutely the better measure.

2) I think you need a HRM or at least something to capture SPM, though even with strokes it won't be apples to apples.

3) ETA - I kind of rambled, but I think time is the better measure given fairly consistent effort, which is what a HRM would help you track.

4) What you really want is V02.

1) I disagree. Both weather and the route can affect effort massively. Time is aloof and objective of all of that plus gives you a controlled method of increasing training stimulation and progression. In addition to this though, it may well be worth also supplementing this with a power meter such as the 'Stryd' system.

2) I've fallen out of love with HRM's in most sports I've done. Stroke rate is typically used in other rowing or paddle sports but that completely relies on you having a stable technique and doesn't account for fatigue degrading the quality. It's a shame the One Giant Leap power meter never got off the ground. That would have been really good. In lieu of all this, a stroke rate meter coupled with a HRM together works ok for distance based paddles.

3) I agree.

4) I would suggest not. Not only is Vo2 max hard to measure reliably outside of a lab, it's not a metric that provides a great deal of actionable intelligence for an amateur athlete to act upon. It's also only part of the equation of an endurance athlete. If you can lay your hands on a SUP erg though, that might be a simpler way of gauging improvement for the hobby athlete via a time trial or ramp test.

1 - Note that I said better not best. The question was whether distance or time was better. I think distance is better than time for running. Running 5 miles at 6 mph or 7.5 mph (25% faster) results in roughly the same burn (expended energy). Running the same amount of time, you would expend about 25% more energy running at 7.5 mph versus 6 mph. So I still think distance is a better measure than time for running.

2 - The reason I like HRM better than SPM is what I mentioned a couple of times - glide. How much resistance you are getting on each stroke is affected by how much the board slowed down and how hard it is to get back to speed. I think HR is closer to being an absolute measure. For most of us, if you keep it over 150 for an extended amount of time, you were pushing pretty hard; maybe a little higher for you younger guys (170 is red line for my age).

3 - Oddly, it was meant to clarify point 1.

4 - That bordered on sarcasm. I know V02 max is not something you can measure easily. It's pretty easy to find out what it means on the net though.

I have tried really hard to come up with some reasonable system of computing burn but haven't had much success. I am trying to keep weight off after being overweight for several years and losing ~65 to get my BMI under 25. I have stayed under 25 for 9 months but started by dropping further and then trying to log everything - what I eat and what I burn - adding in the mysterious BMR and trying to make it zero out.  I always gained back before by trying to do this naturally. I am accepting that I can't, but tracking it is no exact science.
1) I might have got your point wrong. Were you suggesting you use either just time or distance to determine the best method of measuring a workout ? Why not just use Borg's Rate of Perceived Exertion coupled with time ? That way you have both a gauge of length and intensity. Unless you're running on an athletics track or a treadmill, weather and topography makes a huge difference to pace and energy expenditure when running. If you can't get those two similar each time, I'd sad you be better off setting a time limit and then assigning a RPE to it.

2) HRM is falling from favour in many other sports due to the availability of better metrics but I'd certainly agree with you that SPM wouldn't be my first choice for SUP. Whilst there is plenty of research that correlates stroke rate to paddling intensity, this is typically judged over short distances and does not allow for fatigue. For example, to maintain a stroke rate, if a paddler subconsciously rotates their paddle 10 degrees to slightly increase the slippage to cope with the rate, the objectivity of the metric is then lost.

4) Knowing what Vo2 max means isn't really the point though. Lets say you have a Vo2 max test on a bike in the lab with a Douglas bag and the result tells you that you obtain 60ml/kg/min, then what ? What does that actually mean to the paddler in terms of how they design their sessions to improve or what they do in the field? Its the same issue with lactate threshold. You also need a range of these metrics to get a fuller picture. Pragmatically, that's possibly why cyclists are using alternative methods such as The Hunter/Coggan  'functional threshold power' (or older methods such as Joe Friels 'critical power') as a means of showing improvements in the field as its easy to obtain and can be a repeatable test if well designed. Again, it's not perfect but its generally close enough for what many athletes need. I also use things like 'stroke index' too.

Bulky

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Re: Endurance
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2018, 11:44:23 AM »
kind of a toss-up for me.  I track distance because it's fun to see how much I cover in a year.  I try to get a solid hour on the water 4-5x per week but some days it's 40min--other days 1.5hrs.

The beauty of open ocean paddling is that it's never the same.  Some days I'll be able to crank and cover 6mi.  Other days, it takes the same effort to scratch out 2mi and stay on the board.  I come back after having battled wind and chop and my legs burn all day.  Like you said, a spiritual experience either way and really good for the soul.  What you measure depends on what you're trying to achieve.
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RideTheGlide

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Re: Endurance
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2018, 01:33:27 PM »
1) I might have got your point wrong. Were you suggesting you use either just time or distance to determine the best method of measuring a workout ?

If you go back to the first sentence of the first post, the OP is asking which is better, distance or time? My answer was/is distance if I am picking between those two.

I wish I had a way to know calorie burn, but that's outside the OP's question.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2018, 01:35:29 PM by RideTheGlide »
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ukgm

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Re: Endurance
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2018, 01:58:38 PM »
1) I might have got your point wrong. Were you suggesting you use either just time or distance to determine the best method of measuring a workout ?

If you go back to the first sentence of the first post, the OP is asking which is better, distance or time? My answer was/is distance if I am picking between those two.

I wish I had a way to know calorie burn, but that's outside the OP's question.

Ok. In my view, since building endurance is primarily about controlled overload, recovery and supercompensation, it has to be time in my view. Distance (particularly when paddling) is too variable in conditions from one day to the next. Get it wrong and you could overreach which ruin a few days training after it. With time, you won't have that potential issue. Couple time with RPE.

Cruisinby

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Re: Endurance
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2018, 05:23:31 PM »
Interesting replies, thnaks.   After returning from a 1 hr paddle in smooth flat water in comparison to 1 hr paddle in open rough seas, the results vary from say today.    Some days the mind body and soul all agree, it was fun, exhausting and exciting !    Other days it was just a breeze !     I used to stay out for hrs.   Somewhere along the path I became lazy.   Time to step it up again !!!!!!
   

Paddle on !!!!!

Cruisinby

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Re: Endurance
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2018, 09:42:24 AM »
Interesting replies, thnaks.   After returning from a 1 hr paddle in smooth flat water in comparison to 1 hr paddle in open rough seas, the results vary from day to day.    Some days the mind body and soul all agree, it was fun, exhausting and exciting !    Other days it was just a breeze !     I used to stay out for hrs.   Somewhere along the path I became lazy.   Time to step it up again !!!!!!
   

Paddle on !!!!!

RideTheGlide

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Re: Endurance
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2018, 11:05:11 AM »
1) I might have got your point wrong. Were you suggesting you use either just time or distance to determine the best method of measuring a workout ?

If you go back to the first sentence of the first post, the OP is asking which is better, distance or time? My answer was/is distance if I am picking between those two.

I wish I had a way to know calorie burn, but that's outside the OP's question.

Ok. In my view, since building endurance is primarily about controlled overload, recovery and supercompensation, it has to be time in my view. Distance (particularly when paddling) is too variable in conditions from one day to the next. Get it wrong and you could overreach which ruin a few days training after it. With time, you won't have that potential issue. Couple time with RPE.

The interesting thing is that while my answer was distance, it really wouldn't matter which I chose for the long paddles I did this year, which were from 6-14 miles, all on a ~10' iSUP on inland lakes. On every one I averaged ~3.3 mph. So 3 hours was ~10 miles.
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ukgm

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Re: Endurance
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2018, 02:11:30 PM »
1) I might have got your point wrong. Were you suggesting you use either just time or distance to determine the best method of measuring a workout ?

If you go back to the first sentence of the first post, the OP is asking which is better, distance or time? My answer was/is distance if I am picking between those two.

I wish I had a way to know calorie burn, but that's outside the OP's question.

Ok. In my view, since building endurance is primarily about controlled overload, recovery and supercompensation, it has to be time in my view. Distance (particularly when paddling) is too variable in conditions from one day to the next. Get it wrong and you could overreach which ruin a few days training after it. With time, you won't have that potential issue. Couple time with RPE.

The interesting thing is that while my answer was distance, it really wouldn't matter which I chose for the long paddles I did this year, which were from 6-14 miles, all on a ~10' iSUP on inland lakes. On every one I averaged ~3.3 mph. So 3 hours was ~10 miles.

Without knowing a paddlers goals or training plan, its just an educated guess or observation but if the duration isn't being carefully progressed or the intensity, carefully manipulated, you're not going to increase your physiological endurance once you get used to it (after circa 6-12 weeks depending on your background). In other words, if the duration or the average pace is staying the same for most of the year (as you describe  above), it's unlikely a paddlers endurance is really being improved, merely maintained. Granted, this is starting to branch away from the threads OP. I personally find it impossible to use distance as the water and weather state where i train changes so much through winter to summer (due to tide and flow), it would hide or distort any improvements if I relied on it alone.

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Re: Endurance
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2018, 07:06:17 AM »
Does it become too much like work when it is so analytical, Cruisin?  I envy your ability to book so much time on the water.  I'd simply 'count ducks', see who's fixing up their property, compose a song (you - not me), 'get in the zone', etc.  I'd leave the 'barometric pressure of my colon' for the inside a gym where everybody is counting something.  It sounds like you already arrived at a great place.

Jim

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