Author Topic: My 12 ft SUP feels tracky with my quad fins  (Read 5072 times)

bluemarlin04

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Re: My 12 ft SUP feels tracky with my quad fins
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2018, 11:24:05 AM »
Hi SUP SPORT

The board feels small to me. I’m close to 250 lbs. I use it to surf far out to sea on an outer reef so need to length to get me there.

I swapped out the rear fins to a softer template and put in your 3 inch mini fin in the 10 inch box. Going to see how that feels.

I suspect it was the size of my fins. I was running future blacksticks LARGE with LARGE rears with an 80/20 foil.

After reading around it seems the rear foil really plays a big factor.

I might possibly try the thruster setup because of the pivot point it offers.



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Re: My 12 ft SUP feels tracky with my quad fins
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2018, 12:51:38 PM »
Aloha bluemarlin04,
Sounds like you are gonna get it dialed...
Make sure that you push that 3.19" StubNub all the way back in the box...then, it only engages when you need it...
Big Will (6'5" 265#) uses my 4"/5" quad set with it on my 10'3" x 33" 185 liter Mahalo X-Wide model (19" tail)...and, he loads them up and cranks the bejeezus out of them...;-)

We built Matt (BIG guy...great surfer) a custom 10'6" x 33.5" Mahalo X-Wide version at 220 liters...and, he rides it as a pure quad...
Mahalos...{:~)

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Beasho

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Re: My 12 ft SUP feels tracky with my quad fins
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2018, 02:17:25 PM »
Many of the top big wave surfers on the planet ride quads on their go to guns...

Billy Kemper has won the Jaws contest 3X...he rides quads from Pyzel and Glenn Pang...

World Surf League: What was the model and dimensions of Billy's board?
Jon Pyzel: It's my Crazy Train Quad model and the dims are 10'5 x 20.75 x 3.63 the volume is 80 liters.

10' 6" is NOT 12'.  Totally different animal.

As I mentioned I ride all my boards as Quads up to 10' 6".  But the 12' PSH gun is nothing like any of the examples you are showing.  10' 6" are slower and can not attain the speed of a 12' board. 

There are NO big wave riders paddling with 12' boards.  When riding a 10' 6" they take off steeper, deeper and can get much more performance out of their boards.

I am going for the easy in.  On a 12' board you build up massive takeoff speed and just glide into waves that are otherwise uncatchable.  There is no way a 10' 6" board can catch waves where I am catching them at Mavericks.  I know I have tried with a tiny 10' 6" - no dice.  It's my own little secret spot.  But all this requires good board speed and low drag.  Fewer fins, a single center fin, results in the lowest drag.  All those extra fins are  like extra tail feathers adding stability by inducing drag.  Treat the 12' like a race board and keep it simple and clean.  Easy in applies to big and small waves alike.

Try the single fin.

This is what 'Easy in' looks like on a 12' board. 
« Last Edit: December 09, 2018, 03:05:45 PM by Beasho »

Badger

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Re: My 12 ft SUP feels tracky with my quad fins
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2018, 03:40:57 PM »
I overestimated a bit when I said 12' x 34" x 5" might be 300 liters. By the time I realized my mistake, it was too late to go back and edit it out.
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jpeter

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Re: My 12 ft SUP feels tracky with my quad fins
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2018, 03:58:05 PM »
Quote

Coming from a windsurfing background if you want to go fast you use 1 fin.  The small trailer is there to prevent possible spinout.

I still follow modern wavesailing...this comment is simply not true...most of the world's top wave sailors are on multi-fin wavesailing boards...
So, you will definitely find quads riding Jaws at size...

Jason Polakow rode Jaws a couple of weeks ago during the WSL swell...as did Levi Siver...etc...

I would agree with Beasho that single fins are faster for windsurfing.    You use a quad because it turns on a dime and feels great on the wave,  not all out speed.

JP

mrbig

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Re: My 12 ft SUP feels tracky with my quad fins
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2018, 04:29:42 PM »
Let it come to you..
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Re: My 12 ft SUP feels tracky with my quad fins
« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2018, 04:51:10 PM »
Quote

Coming from a windsurfing background if you want to go fast you use 1 fin.  The small trailer is there to prevent possible spinout.

I still follow modern wavesailing...this comment is simply not true...most of the world's top wave sailors are on multi-fin wavesailing boards...
So, you will definitely find quads riding Jaws at size...

Jason Polakow rode Jaws a couple of weeks ago during the WSL swell...as did Levi Siver...etc...

I would agree with Beasho that single fins are faster for windsurfing.    You use a quad because it turns on a dime and feels great on the wave,  not all out speed.

JP

Quad fins are very "fast" for wavesailing big waves...as are tri-fins...and, singles...but, it's not a race...;-)
The speeds that we obtain wavesailing with any fin setup, leaves other boards in the dust...you are never going to be going slow on a big wave when powered by a sail...so, no matter what...you are going to be going "fast"...;-)

The reason that quads are being used in ginormous surf is because they sit lower in the water and give more grip on big bottom turns...and, they turn great...;-)

https://youtu.be/SdSpbrGZsPE
Mahalos...{:~)

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Re: My 12 ft SUP feels tracky with my quad fins
« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2018, 05:05:30 PM »
The trend in big wave paddle-in surfing is shorter and quad...the prone paddle-in guys are taking off right under the lip...not way out on the shoulder...
On many big wave ledges there really is no advantage to try to catch the wave way outside before it breaks...it breaks where it breaks...and, it requires split second decision making and wave judgement...

They are generating plenty of speed on their quad guns while increasing positioning and maneuverability on the wave face...

2014: At the inaugural ASP Big Wave Tour event held at Pico Alto, Peru, 99% of all competitors ride four-fin gun designs. Photo: Robbo/ASP

https://www.surfline.com/surf-news/visual-history-surfboard-fins/25660

The paddle-in guns of today, ridden by the elite surfers in waves like Maverick’s, Waimea Bay and Todos Santos, are usually in the normally in the 9 to11-foot range.

“My board is 11’ 3”, four inches thick and has been glassed twice to make it extra heavy,” said Shane Dorian on the board he rode at Portugal’s infamous Nazaré in 2013. Shane rides quad fins, although some surfers, like the Long brothers, Greg and Rusty, prefer three fins.


https://mpora.com/surfing/kit-need-big-wave-surfing

« Last Edit: December 09, 2018, 05:12:53 PM by SUP Sports ® »
Mahalos...{:~)

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bluemarlin04

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Re: My 12 ft SUP feels tracky with my quad fins
« Reply #23 on: December 09, 2018, 05:18:35 PM »


Try the single fin.

This is what 'Easy in' looks like on a 12' board.

I think I may stick with the single. Rode the quad today and it just doesn’t react the way it did when I rode the single fin. The single was very fast and gave me the exact neutral reaction I needed when I surfed it in big surf.

The board in double overhead surf feels right. Catches way outside and there isn’t a top speed.

I think you’re right and am going to stick with the single fin.

The 11 inch seems big but the board is 12 ft and has a full belly to performance concaves.

The single fin offers the earliest entry into the wave and the best reaction.

I can tell that waves are easier to catch on a single fin than with multiple fins.

Funny you mention it because while researching I found Parmenters article about single fins and an article about single fin Mavericks guns he would shape and also single fin Mavericks guns Jeff Clark rode

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Re: My 12 ft SUP feels tracky with my quad fins
« Reply #24 on: December 10, 2018, 07:26:41 AM »
Form my direct observations...in the several decades that I have been involved in fin and board design...more often than not, a rider's fin decision is ultimately driven by personal preference and biases...thus, the multitudes of choices...

For the record, Jeff Clarke was an early proponent of quad fin guns at Mavericks...and, Parmenter is perhaps best known for his Widowmaker (2 + 1) guns...as well as his flip flops after publishing long winded diatribes about commercialization of surfing...foreign imports of surfboards and how it's decimated the US surfboard industry...and, an apology for ever being involved in the SUP industry...etc...

Again, when it comes to the best big wave surfers in the world choosing equipment to paddle into the planet's biggest waves...the fact remains that they overwhelmingly choose quad fin guns...they have become the standard...nearly every rider in some contests utilizes them...and, they don't make that life threatening choice because they are slower...especially, paddling in at open ocean reef breaks like Cortes Bank...etc...

Chris Christenson makes big wave paddle-in guns for many of the top guys...including Greg Long, John John Florence, Mark Healey, Nathan Florence (JJF's bro), Billy Kemper...etc...guys that are consistently winning the big wave surfing contests around the world...

https://www.surfer.com/blogs/design-forum/shaped-by-waves/#7c975f060d

What strengths do you feel like are unique to the design?

It has a real crazy beak nose on it because it carries the thickness all the way up into the nose. Pyzel had to shave a bit off from the nose, because it's so thick up there, and I think that makes it when you're paddling that you get on this plane when you get to a certain speed or when you're paddling for a wave. The board is just going. You can't really stop it once it starts. It gets this crazy momentum because of that thickness in the front.

[We then hit up Jon Pyzel for the design details, conditions best suited for the board, and more.]

What shape is Nathan on in the photo?

Nathan was riding a 10'4" x 20.75 x 3.63 quad called the Padillac.

What’s the background on this particular shape?

It’s a board that I developed with Mark Healey's feedback and have been refining for the past five years; he actually came up with the name, because it paddles so fast. Since then, Mark went on to win the XXL Paddle-In Wave Of The Winter, John won the Eddie, and Billy Kemper won the Jaws event two years in a row- all on the Padillac.


https://www.pyzelsurf.com.au/blog/john-johns-eddie-aikau-board/
Mahalos...{:~)

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bluemarlin04

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Re: My 12 ft SUP feels tracky with my quad fins
« Reply #25 on: December 10, 2018, 08:19:27 AM »
SUP Sports- thanks for the encouragement. I feel determined to get this quad worked out and dialed on this board.

I’ll keep trying. I think I had too big of fins and by putting smaller fins without the foil I will have a better feel for it.

I think with so much rail engaged on a board that large if I just put smaller quad fins it’ll hold much better.

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Re: My 12 ft SUP feels tracky with my quad fins
« Reply #26 on: December 10, 2018, 09:40:56 AM »
Aloha bluemarlin04,
Agree...sounds like symptoms of being over-finned...combo of too much surface area and stiffness...I still think that there is a quad solution for your board...

I design my side fins with flex in the tips and fast foils...and, comparatively under-finned on my wave riding SUPs compared to most guy's fin setups on their prone boards...
They are essential for the offshore reef breaks that I surf, that are totally choked off with kelp...so, singles are a non-starter at these spots...

I'm definitely not against singles...I grew up surfing singles in the Free Ride days...snapped a triple stringer Diffenderfer in Humboldt...but, still have my beloved Brewer gun that I rode on the North Shore, Hanalei, Humboldt, and Puerto...etc...hanging in my shop...and, have manufactured 1000's of my single fin designs...SUP and windsurfing...had a couple of the top guys in the world using them...Kevin Pritchard...Zane Schweitzer...etc...

I also have extensive quivers of single fin wave riding sailboards...but, also tri-fins and quad...so, not stuck with any one design dogma...
Mahalos...{:~)

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Cruisinby

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Re: My 12 ft SUP feels tracky with my quad fins
« Reply #27 on: December 11, 2018, 06:39:59 PM »
Experiment, experiment, experiment---try others ideas and don't be afraid to mix and match fin sizes and fin designs.   All boards / fin combinations are not the same coupled with the minute by minute changing waves conditions.   I have done all the above and have found combinations that defy the experts.   Remember much of what is sold today are pushed by pros who can perform on anything anywhere.  Us motals can not ! we can find what works best for us if we dare to !   To hell with trends !

Fins are costly, It's fun to make some of your own if your into that !   Or looks for used ones the others want to give away because the didn't give then enough time in water.   Riding quads on any board takes time to adjust as do thrusters.

My search has lead me to use fins the work best in 80% of the conditions.   The other 20% of the time I do change out for known exspected performance I think I will need !   doesn't always work out that way  Head scratching time

"then again "I think I will then I think I won't then Think I do and I think I don'"t  some days are just confusing !

Ive seen good surfers/sup guys ride boards and rip with two different side fins, twins singles of all sizes and no fins !Google Pat Curren theory on small fins in large surf.   

I ride a 12 ft PSH gun and love it with differnet fin set ups

I guess sometimes, it comes down to what is in ones skill level !   some days are better than others

Good luck on your hunt !

paddle on !



« Last Edit: December 11, 2018, 06:42:41 PM by Cruisinby »

FRP

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Re: My 12 ft SUP feels tracky with my quad fins
« Reply #28 on: December 11, 2018, 07:52:45 PM »
Hi

I am new to surfing a quad. Only the past few months. I know that quads behave differently in the surf.......the question I am interested in is do you surf them differently? Wondering if this might also shed some light on the original post?

Cheers

Bob
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bluemarlin04

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Re: My 12 ft SUP feels tracky with my quad fins
« Reply #29 on: December 11, 2018, 10:41:41 PM »
I shortboard quads and thrusters.

Quads do ride differently. They won’t go vertical like a thruster and have more drawn out turns.

I really like how thruster shortboards ride. You have the control.

 


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