Author Topic: Surfers stance question  (Read 3911 times)

supsean

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Surfers stance question
« on: November 15, 2018, 11:23:05 AM »
I have read a lot about standing in surfers stance out in the water, and I have been getting better at it.I am on a rather wide 32" 8'10" 145 liter Fanatic Allwave, and I want to go down in width.

My question: If you surf a narrow board, is it easier to control in surf stance than a wider board of the same length in wind chop? I feel that a less wide / corky board would benefit this, as you could control it better with your feet.
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Re: Surfers stance question
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2018, 12:26:43 PM »
Yes, it definitely helps as you loose volume in the rails. The other thing is to just have your feet staggered in surf stance a bit while paddling around but closer to the middle of the board. So.....for example, my board is 28.5" wide, and I can pretty much tell that I'm roughly in between the handle and the rail with my feet based on where the wax gets rubbed off.  My stance moves like this:

-Paddling around normal: Back foot toes even with front foot heel.
-Paddling for a wave: Same as above except for the last 2 or 3 strokes when I'm lining up, then my back foot is moving back probably a foot and a half or so back.
-Catching wave: I step back further with my back foot and slide my front foot over the handle.
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Biggreen

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Re: Surfers stance question
« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2018, 12:27:49 PM »
I think less volume would be easier/better than less width. Control is more technique.  The right volume, whatever width (within reason, of course) should be manageable if your skills are there.  I ride reasonably narrow boards and find that just being in surf stance in general helps all the way around. In surf stance your feet are closer to the stringer line, which to me takes away, or makes wobble less significant. I’ve listened to some and it seems they’re overly focused on the balance thing, which I would think might make it worse. Let the board move how it needs to underneath you. Don’t fight it, go with it. Keeping your stick in the water helps. And remember, don’t look down, look ahead.


supthecreek

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Re: Surfers stance question
« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2018, 01:04:51 PM »
My quick answer is wet rails are easier than "corky" rails

Width seems easier to me, especially with wet rails.

I have a lot of boards
All different configurations

My summer weight hovered around 236 lbs  - 107 kg

My 9'4 Creek is 32" wide and 148 liters, but thinly foiled, so the rails are still wet.
Very stable.

My 9'1 Acid is only 30.5" wide and 125 liters, so my feet are constantly wet.... but still reasonably stable in clean conditions.


I do a lot of video stability testing, for my own knowledge, so I will understand as much as possible about what works and what doesn't.

One consistent thing on low volume boards is foot placement.
My vids show me that I am always in a similar stance.
"Modified surf stance" with feet fairly close together (side to side)
One foot slightly forward of the handle, one foot slightly behind the handle.

Having a foot too far in any direction ends up with over correcting.
On thin nosed boards, I need to have fore and aft control, but if I get too "front footed", the nose just sinks and I fall over.

Close to center = subtle corrections and much less serious wobble


IMO
the real "width vs volume" test will come soon
Today I am at 217 lbs (98.5 kg)

When I get to 213 lbs, my weight to volume on my 9'1 Creek will be exactly the same as it was on my 9'4 Creek all summer.
My 9'4 x 32 Creek has always been easy in winter, in full wetsuit gear
My 9'1 x 31 Creek is ok in baggies, but more difficult in chop.

Soon, I will be able to throw on a wetsuit and be the same w/v ratio on my 9'1, as I was on my 9'4
Then I will know if it's all about volume, or all about width (1" thinner)

Here is a pic from my "stability" vids, showing 2 of my smaller boards.... with different widths and volumes.
wet rails.... and wetter rails



JEG

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Re: Surfers stance question
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2018, 01:25:26 PM »
good illustration Mr. supthecreek  ;)

TallDude

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Re: Surfers stance question
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2018, 01:30:23 PM »
Another component balance on Standup's is your paddle. I was just showing a guy a bracing technique today as we stood in the line up. I'm almost always in a staggered stance in the line up, I always have my paddle IN THE WATER also. This guy was worried about going to a narrower board because he had trouble sometimes on the 10'6 x 32 that he was riding. I noticed he just stood there with his paddle in the air. I told him I'm 6'7 and 250 lbs, and my board is 10' x 29.5 and my feet are wet to my ankles. The back 1/2 of my board is under water. I showed him how I gently push and pull on my paddle to keep resistance built-up on my paddle blade. That gives me a third balance point that I need with smaller narrower boards. I told him I've been doing it for so many years, it's just second nature. You could watch my hands and not see me move them, it's that subtle.
There is a lot of technique in balancing on narrower low volume boards. I rarely fall because I don't panic when my rail sinks deep on one side. I just brace with my paddle knowing it's going to pop back up. Then I center myself and start paddling forward again.

supsean

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Re: Surfers stance question
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2018, 03:27:58 PM »
Such helpful responses!!  As an advanced beginner in a place where I am usually the only SUP surfer, I love having this site!

Rick, I am already pretty much in the position that you have demonstrated. I have watched your videos and some others that have helped me to get out of the parallel stance.

From what I'm reading in this topic, as far as shape goes, narrower doesn't help--and might hinder– controlling the side-to-side motion of the board while paddling through chop in surf position. Instead, it is better to have the rails in the water.  I mainly surf beach breaks in the northeast, and am not comfortable going to the jetty if there are a lot of surfers around, so the speed thing is important as well as paddling in chop.   Intuitively I feel that my wide allwave feels slow in the water; and it takes a lot to get it up to speed. The 9'1" creek that I demo'd this summer at the APP final (thanks Rick) seemed much faster and more agile on the water. But it is about the same width as my Allwave.

So I guess my question now is what are the advantages of a narrower board for surfing?  Intuitively I feel that it will help me go faster and be more responsive while in surf stance.

Thanks TallDude for the advice on bracing. I am definitely brace a lot. I drag my paddle in the water almost the whole time if there is chop.

 



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Badger

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Re: Surfers stance question
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2018, 04:17:32 PM »
What!?  No, you guys have it all wrong. Parallel stance is what everyone is going to. I've been surfing parallel for almost a year now and I'll never go back to standing sideways.


« Last Edit: November 15, 2018, 04:29:44 PM by Badger »
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Zooport

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Re: Surfers stance question
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2018, 06:31:48 PM »
What!?  No, you guys have it all wrong. Parallel stance is what everyone is going to. I've been surfing parallel for almost a year now and I'll never go back to standing sideways.





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anonsurfer

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Re: Surfers stance question
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2018, 06:42:21 AM »
I have read a lot about standing in surfers stance out in the water, and I have been getting better at it.I am on a rather wide 32" 8'10" 145 liter Fanatic Allwave, and I want to go down in width.

My question: If you surf a narrow board, is it easier to control in surf stance than a wider board of the same length in wind chop? I feel that a less wide / corky board would benefit this, as you could control it better with your feet.

I surf short, narrow boards (6-6 x 23.75, 7-0 x 22.75) and use a parallel stance most of the time.  The only time I shift into a surf/staggered stance is when I am paddling back out through white water or about to catch a wave. 

I think its a good idea to practice both and go with whatever works best for you.
 

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anonsurfer

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Re: Surfers stance question
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2018, 07:32:20 AM »

So I guess my question now is what are the advantages of a narrower board for surfing?  Intuitively I feel that it will help me go faster and be more responsive while in surf stance.


Faster?  Maybe.  There are a lot of other factors that play a big role in how fast you go (outline, bottom contours, rocker, fins, surfing skill).   

Responsive?  Yes.   Narrower will allow you to go rail to rail a lot easier.  This will make the board more responsive than a comparable wider board.    A more responsive board will feel faster even if it isn't.

SUP Responsiveness and the Guild Factor
---
I think the biggest factor in SUP responsiveness is guild factor (GF).   GF = body weight in KG / board volume in L.   When you drop below a GF of 1.3 you will notice a BIG jump in responsiveness.  The lower you go, the more responsive the board will be.   

Width vs Length.  Which plays a bigger role in responsiveness?
---
I find shorter/wider boards to be more responsive up to a certain point.  I find that anything less than 3.3 length/width ratio is too wide and anything greater than 3.7 is too long.     At ratios lower than 3.3 the width penalty is greater than the benefit of the shorter length.    At ratios greater than 3.7 the board starts feeling too long.   

These numbers will be different for you.  The goal is to find your optimal guild factor and length/width ratio that works best for your style of surfing and the type of waves you surf.


 

   
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supsean

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Re: Surfers stance question
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2018, 07:42:17 AM »
What!?  No, you guys have it all wrong. Parallel stance is what everyone is going to. I've been surfing parallel for almost a year now and I'll never go back to standing sideways.




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Biggreen

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Re: Surfers stance question
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2018, 08:30:35 AM »


SUP Responsiveness and the Guild Factor
---

Width vs Length.  Which plays a bigger role in responsiveness?
---
I find shorter/wider boards to be more responsive up to a certain point.  I find that anything less than 3.3 length/width ratio is too wide and anything greater than 3.7 is too long.     At ratios lower than 3.3 the width penalty is greater than the benefit of the shorter length.    At ratios greater than 3.7 the board starts feeling too long.   

These numbers will be different for you.  The goal is to find your optimal guild factor and length/width ratio that works best for your style of surfing and the type of waves you surf.

Interesting. I did the math on the two boards I ride the most, and I landed at 3.35 and 3.68. 3.35 when I want nimble and fun. 3.68 when there’s more chop or just more size that I don’t want to fight the inside break with.

supsean

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Re: Surfers stance question
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2018, 08:55:55 AM »

Faster?  Maybe.  There are a lot of other factors that play a big role in how fast you go (outline, bottom contours, rocker, fins, surfing skill).   

Responsive?  Yes.   Narrower will allow you to go rail to rail a lot easier.  This will make the board more responsive than a comparable wider board.    A more responsive board will feel faster even if it isn't.

SUP Responsiveness and the Guild Factor
---
I think the biggest factor in SUP responsiveness is guild factor (GF).   GF = body weight in KG / board volume in L.   When you drop below a GF of 1.3 you will notice a BIG jump in responsiveness.  The lower you go, the more responsive the board will be.   

Width vs Length.  Which plays a bigger role in responsiveness?
---
I find shorter/wider boards to be more responsive up to a certain point.  I find that anything less than 3.3 length/width ratio is too wide and anything greater than 3.7 is too long.     At ratios lower than 3.3 the width penalty is greater than the benefit of the shorter length.    At ratios greater than 3.7 the board starts feeling too long.   

These numbers will be different for you.  The goal is to find your optimal guild factor and length/width ratio that works best for your style of surfing and the type of waves you surf.

Thanks for the perspective Anon. I had a feeling that I am heading into the grey area of individual preference. I want a more responsive board–one that will be my go-to board for a couple of years. But it is damn hard to demo a board here in the northeast. And often I am the only guy out there on a SUP in my local spot.

I have seen guild factor as a ratio before–and as you explained it, it seems a good start point. So I am at a guild factor of 1.7 right now (145litere/85kg). I felt comfortable at GF 1.5 on a Creek that I demo'd. So I feel that I need to go lower than what I feel comfortable on now, as I want a board that is slightly above my pay grade. So perhaps I should go for a 1.4. Like 120 or so liters. Next is to figure out what shape I want for my northeast beach break close-outs.

Any recommended boards to look at for an intermediate like me?  So far, the Sunova Creek at 8'10" works, although it is a GF 1.45 and board ratio of 3.49, and the 8'7" as well  at GF 1.35 and board ratio 3.49.
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Re: Surfers stance question
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2018, 10:23:17 AM »
What!?  No, you guys have it all wrong. Parallel stance is what everyone is going to. I've been surfing parallel for almost a year now and I'll never go back to standing sideways.




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