Author Topic: Fear: Trump in the White House  (Read 10593 times)

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Re: Fear: Trump in the White House
« Reply #150 on: October 10, 2018, 09:12:33 AM »
a laughable reason at best--

as tho the mandate made it so billionaires couldnt afford to choose the healthcare they want (among best doctors and hospitals on the planet) if they had to contribute 3 or 400 a month to the system that seeks to benefit all, including working poor people

healthcare, life expectancy, innumerable other metrics like infant mortality---are crap in the us, on average, compared to other developed countries

poor americans' healthcare metrics fall in line with battle-torn developing nations in africa and asia

we have a two tiered health care system---if youre rich, we have the best in the world---if youre poor, we have among the worst in the world---on average we lag other developped countries by a long shot

it's good to be rich

but wait there's no upward mobility here anymore---so the poor will remain poor, while the rich get richer--being poor in america is very dangerous to one's health---certainly compared to other developed countries

LOL wut


The US is huge, our life expectancy ranges based on money/education/diet. The poorest states eat the worst and die the earliest. The richest live the longest due to better eating and exercise. Hawaii lives the longest. Have any of you been to the hospital in Hawaii? I only went once to Maui Memorial and it was a disorganized-slow mess, at least compared to the crappy rural hospital near my town in WA.

Would it be true that to have an "even playing field" we should force doctors to move to poor regions at gunpoint?

The government already provides massive loans and incentives for rural hospitals, but you cannot attract top managerial or doctor talent due to the quality of life in the area. We are lucky to live in the United States where we don't have to leave the country to find the best expert for our condition, we have a capitalist system providing substantial research and development for it. Get the government and insurance companies out of the way so that we all have the same access but just need to figure out how to pay for it.

Common thinking that the government can solve any problem drives me crazy.
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PonoBill

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Re: Fear: Trump in the White House
« Reply #151 on: October 10, 2018, 11:09:07 AM »
Yup, Eastbound is a smart guy, but every so often I wonder what he's been smoking. Healthcare is a mess in the USA, but it's not for some simple reason like money. Every time I hear someone say poor people have bad diets because they're poor I go a little insane. They have poor diets because they make horrific choices.

The only thing that separated me from Homelessness at one point in my life was an ancient Ford Econoline van that had been brush-painted turquoise. I paid $150 for it. Lived in it for more than a year. I ate a monotonous diet but it was a healthy one, and much cheaper than what I see "poor" people buying today.

Poor in the USA is not the same thing as poor in the third world. The advances in the rest of the world have been spectacular, but poor people in Africa are not pounding big macs and cheap frozen pizza. Here the poor are fat. Beyond fat. Talk to a doctor sometime about the expectations people have about their field. Doesn't matter what kind of practice. I recently had an eye-opening conversation with my dermatologist. He believes that more than 90 percent of his effort is wasted. Go to a Walmart that has a grocery and cruise the aisle. Let me know if you buy anything.

I know I sometimes sound like a liberal, I'm not, but I think society needs safety nets, and healthcare costs need to be addressed in a rational manner. But I'm not in favor of insulating people from the results of their abysmal choices and lack of discipline. Healthcare is not going to help some immense type 2 diabetic pounding down a half gallon ice cream as a snack.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2018, 11:11:10 AM by PonoBill »
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Re: Fear: Trump in the White House
« Reply #152 on: October 10, 2018, 02:38:34 PM »
OMG- Pono you are kind of a smart guy but sometimes I wonder what you are smoking. Structures that privilege the holy fucking trinity of privilege-white, male, straight were in place MORE THEN EVER while you were pulling yourself up by your bootstraps, living in your van down by the river. No one, including me, is saying you did not bust your hump and bring huge, intellectual chops to your ascendency to wealth and choices  but your willful ignorance of race and gender as it relates to opportunity is beneath you. Do better. Read some history that was not written by a straight white dude. Geez. 

And study up on who benefits from globalism-hint not poor Americans of every ilk, but the WORLD is a much butter place overall.

Eastbound is on point.
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Area 10

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Re: Fear: Trump in the White House
« Reply #153 on: October 10, 2018, 03:30:37 PM »
OMG- Pono you are kind of a smart guy but sometimes I wonder what you are smoking. Structures that privilege the holy fucking trinity of privilege-white, male, straight were in place MORE THEN EVER while you were pulling yourself up by your bootstraps, living in your van down by the river. No one, including me, is saying you did not bust your hump and bring huge, intellectual chops to your ascendency to wealth and choices  but your willful ignorance of race and gender as it relates to opportunity is beneath you. Do better. Read some history that was not written by a straight white dude. Geez. 

And study up on who benefits from globalism-hint not poor Americans of every ilk, but the WORLD is a much butter place overall.

Eastbound is on point.
Yes. You have a point.

Mostly the diet thing is about education - although it can be hard to find the right foods, and afford them, in many deprived areas (and Iíve lived in quite a few total sh1tholes in my time). Itís tough to live like Gwyneth Paltrow in these places, there are so many stressors, and so much uncertainty and danger. Itís hard to worry about your fibre intake when you are worried you are gonna be robbed for the 17th time this year, and you and your kids might be evicted.

But education is the great and intial divider. If every school in any country reflected perfectly the entire demographic of that country, and everyone had the same money available for food, then differences in diet choices might indeed be said to reflect ďchoiceĒ. But this is a million miles from the real situation, where kids are channelled into different lives, with different expectations and norms as soon as the parents are able to do so, and by whatever means they can. Those who belong to the dominant culture and are a good fit with it will always then have more options open to them, whether they be real or perceived. People in deprived areas eat e.g. cheap burgers because they are cheap, and easy, everyone does it, and if you did manage to find yourself a salad (which might take some time to hunt down, and in calorific terms would be much more expensive), your peers would call you a freak. Many kids from really deprived areas donít even know that fries come from potatoes, and may never have eaten eg. a raw tomato, or be able to e.g. distinguish a lettuce from a cabbage or whatever. Education. If youíve been lucky enough to have had it, itís hard to see things from the perspective of those who havenít, even if youíve been an unwilling tourist in their environment for a while, passing through on your way to the life that was originally ordained for you.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2018, 03:33:04 PM by Area 10 »

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Re: Fear: Trump in the White House
« Reply #154 on: October 10, 2018, 05:31:25 PM »
OMG- Pono you are kind of a smart guy but sometimes I wonder what you are smoking. Structures that privilege the holy fucking trinity of privilege-white, male, straight were in place MORE THEN EVER while you were pulling yourself up by your bootstraps, living in your van down by the river. No one, including me, is saying you did not bust your hump and bring huge, intellectual chops to your ascendency to wealth and choices  but your willful ignorance of race and gender as it relates to opportunity is beneath you. Do better. Read some history that was not written by a straight white dude. Geez. 

And study up on who benefits from globalism-hint not poor Americans of every ilk, but the WORLD is a much butter place overall.

Eastbound is on point.

Actually, I'm reasonably aware of the progress of the rest of the world, and the point of my post is simply that there is more to the crappy state of health in America than money or insurance. Perhaps I should have said that more simply but the idea seems to require some explanation.

I have a somewhat simplistic view of the world--I don't expect to understand it. I don't think anyone else does either. I think the reason people thump bibles or wave flags or claim that their side is right is because the alternative to having a simple answer terrifies them.

I'm comfortable with that. I don't expect to have a useful solution to homelessness, poverty, racism, political polarization, etc. etc.. But when I hear someone else say it's "A" not "B" I suspect they're full of shit--or smoking something.
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eastbound

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Re: Fear: Trump in the White House
« Reply #155 on: October 10, 2018, 07:08:29 PM »
it's not about what state you live in, it's about if youre poor--poor in a wealthy state? your life expectancy goes south, infant mortality up, etc etc---and there may be more poor in poor states, but youd better believe the wealthy in those states get themselves plenty of good care---mayo? md anderson? sloan kettering? people with excellent insurance or wealth fly from all over the country to get their care at these incredible billion-dollar-endowed tax-free institutions--many from poor states

out of pocket? cuz you still have a few assets, but you let your insurance lapse after a job loss? your healthcare, wherever you seek it, will average five times the cost vs that charged to people who have insurance (whether they pay as deductible, or the insurer actually pays)--why is this legal? because poor unemployed uninsured dont have it in their budgets to buy lobbyists and congressman to do the right thing

but here in america, alone, poor, seriously ill gets deadly real quick

and check in to reasonable quality health care, as served via single-payer and hybrid systems, all over, God forbid, socialist Europe!!! evil!!!

https://www.economist.com/united-states/2017/08/10/the-fix-for-american-health-care-can-be-found-in-europe

and the disappointing metrics re the quality of our health care vs that of other developed countries are tough to argue about--link me anything from a reliable source that disputes, and i'll give it a read-check our costs and cost efficiencies--shameful how many dirty finger get into our health care pie--and btw it aint about the wealth of the us vs these countries--quite the opposite

capitalism?? bah! capitalism involves competition--id love a truly competitive health insurance system--ours is designed to make competitive assessment of policies nearly impossible--and again, it's legal! wonder why? (but dont waste time wondering what im smoking)

i too am disgusted by the choices people make re their health and many other facets of their lives--but who am i to say i know better as to who shd get medical care or not?? If I have a serious spinal cord injury surfing big waves, and can be kept alive at great expense, expense i cant remotely cover myself, should i be left to die? many would say my risk-taking shouldn't be the responsibility of others--what about the kid with similar injuries from football? bad parent choices?? or the unemployed, uninsured guy who slips on the ice?? he took no unreasonable risk, by any definition, but he's poor--do we pay, or let him die??

education is key to upward mobility--where privilege mixes in, is in stats on parental education--where parents are well-educated their children tend to ascend social strata---where parent are uneducated, that child rarely sees improved economic enfranchisement--the elite beget more elite


and bean, i exaggerate---but the fact is that the US international rank in most metrics for upward mobility is weak (18 out of 24), and the decline over the last 40 years, coincident with the evolution of our income inequlity issues, is clear

again link me otherwise--but go google "us upward mobility ranking"
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Re: Fear: Trump in the White House
« Reply #156 on: October 10, 2018, 07:36:33 PM »
Hi eastbound. You sound like a very knowledgeable guy. You talk about riding big waves. Thatís wonderful. Maybe you should spend more time riding BIG waves. Really BIG waves. You just might appreciate living more.

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Re: Fear: Trump in the White House
« Reply #157 on: October 10, 2018, 07:55:51 PM »

but the fact is that the US international rank in most metrics for upward mobility is weak (18 out of 24), and the decline over the last 40 years, coincident with the evolution of our income inequlity issues, is clear

again link me otherwise--but go google "us upward mobility ranking"


An exhaustive study on the topic - worth a read
http://www.nber.org/digest/jul14/w19844.html

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Re: Fear: Trump in the White House
« Reply #158 on: October 10, 2018, 08:54:09 PM »

but the fact is that the US international rank in most metrics for upward mobility is weak (18 out of 24), and the decline over the last 40 years, coincident with the evolution of our income inequlity issues, is clear
Yes, and conversely China is enjoying upward mobility.  They have inter generational income elasticity out the wazoo.  Itís truly relative...their middle-class parents were making $6k.




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Re: Fear: Trump in the White House
« Reply #159 on: October 10, 2018, 09:47:15 PM »
Yes, that was an interesting article. Okay, there's your link: http://www.nber.org/digest/jul14/w19844.html   And there is an obvious flaw in your reasoning Eastbound. Here's a clue--it's math.

Having recently finished re-reading all of Ayn Rand's novels (I remember now why I thought she was an idiot) I've been reading all of John D. McDonald's Travis McGee novels. It's strange to read the mental rants Travis McGee had in these books from the 60's and 70's that sound almost identical to the things I hear people say today. It's kind of spooky really, I wasn't aware of any of it when I first read these books 40 years ago. You'd actually have to read one to see what I mean, you could pick any one, the litany of problems is covered at some point in every book so far. I've plowed through about fifteen of them.

And yes, single payer is probably the only viable solution to financing healthcare. But financing it is just one issue--having insurance doesn't make you healthy, and as many people who bought the cheaper insurance plans under Obamacare have discovered, it doesn't even mean you can afford to see a doctor. Americans consume healthcare like they consume everything else. I think universal medicare might be a reasonable solution, but how will that shake out when everyone can go see a doctor anytime they want, at no cost? I'm a big, overweight guy. But anywhere I go outside of Hood River I'm slim and fit. Everywhere I look I see dead people. There's a cost side of the equation too. It's currently 3.3 Trillion--does that go anywhere but up?
« Last Edit: October 10, 2018, 10:13:18 PM by PonoBill »
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eastbound

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Re: Fear: Trump in the White House
« Reply #160 on: October 11, 2018, 02:45:01 AM »
you know nil of my life and my enjoyment thereof, rider--best look after whatever ails you--maybe smoke some good shit--might help??

then maybe study up a bit so you can add something meaningful to the discussion?
« Last Edit: October 11, 2018, 03:17:34 AM by eastbound »
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Re: Fear: Trump in the White House
« Reply #161 on: October 11, 2018, 02:54:16 AM »
But anywhere I go outside of Hood River I'm slim and fit. Everywhere I look I see dead people.

Obesity is a major issue in Hood River as well.  Worse in the surrounding towns.  The Dalles is in crisis stage. Maui, that goes without saying.  All have great, healthy food options from farmers market to top notch grocery stores, etc.  Food deserts are real but that is a small component of this.

Obesity is addiction.  We talk a lot here about the media driven concept that everything is getting worse while statistically most things are in fact improving.  Obesity and drug addiction (and deaths from both) are two notable exceptions.  These things are multifactorial but you could certainly theorize that 40 years of wage stagnation, the disappearance of entire categories of work, helpless inequality, and the resulting pervasive hopelessness play a large role.





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Re: Fear: Trump in the White House
« Reply #162 on: October 11, 2018, 03:12:12 AM »
funny you guys linked the same piece--not sure if i can get to read past the synopsis-i will try when ive time-first comment is that they cite ongoing likelihood of bottom fifth kids getting to top fifth-so the tiny amount of kids moving from very poor to very rich has been stable-on face i can accept that--id like to see their data as applies to mobility up one or two quintiles from the bottom one or two-vs actual movement downward from middle quintiles to bottom--but no time for that---stox are lower early--gon be some wild action in here--wheat in the fields--big sketchy waves to ride in the markets--if you have some ammo put a small amt of what you have to work---save ammo in case of more downside--might happen---market needs to prove it can hold in here--will take some time--up momentum is over, at least for the time being--this one doiesnt feel like a breakdown we will shrug off easily--at least as of now--good luck to all

then tomorrow there'll be head plus a couple in NY and NE, with light offshores--sat will be smaller but also buff

hope to emerge from the weekend with my small fast nimble barra dialed in!





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eastbound

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Re: Fear: Trump in the White House
« Reply #163 on: October 11, 2018, 03:28:16 AM »
pono and NE--pls let's have a laugh:

complete respect for you having found your way, pono, through times that had to be very tough

but "when you were living in a van down by the river" was funny as hell

i miss chris farley--poor guy made some awful choices but he brought fun smiles to many

and he was a sweet, nice man
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Re: Fear: Trump in the White House
« Reply #164 on: October 11, 2018, 04:55:47 AM »
Obesity is super tricky across all economic levels but as usual trickier as you move towards the lower end of the economic scale. I think education will work but it will be hard, harder then the tobacco problem. If you look at adolescent tobacco use it is dropped to 13% compared to 19% who try cannabis and 67% who try alcohol. It has been a huge public health success story. There is checking ID's in stores, taxing the heck out of smokes so it really does become hard to afford and the scared straight programs. It took 40 years but works.

Obesity will be harder because, like ciggies and chaw you can buy sugar within walking distance or a short drive from every home in America. Stuff with sugar in it is cheap and no one checks an id. The food folks can afford is the high calorie, white flour obesity making kind of food. We grow food at scale in the US really, really well with lots of subsidies and amazing distribution.

I was never in favor of Obama care because it did not address enough of the grow or die capitalist healthcare business. What we got was insurance that was not usable. Pono makes the big point that we use health care like we use everything else-to excess. The consumerism will make singer payer hard for the big ol US of A. Solve the sugar and addiction problems and we may have a shot at some kind of decent health care.

Eastbound I am actually funny or I use to be. The last five years has been a death spiral for my left knee. Replacement coming this fall and I turn 50 in November. I look forward to being a lot less cranky and getting back after it.

One thing is for sure I would like to take Pono's new van down by the river. Is that thing going to be for rent? When I come to Hood River next summer can I AirBnB it? Seriously? Think of the good arguments we could have on the way to the put in for the downwinders. Shit we could get a double canoe. I have big plans for next summer and addressing my obesity. All you all are going to be seeing a lot of me.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2018, 05:33:33 AM by NEplay »
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