Author Topic: Unlimiteds don't like to turn into the wind....  (Read 7149 times)

Area 10

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Re: Unlimiteds don't like to turn into the wind....
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2018, 04:01:29 AM »

I’ve rarely seen a less convincing video. That arrangement is not needed for those conditions, and any problem being encountered is likely due to a combination of poor standing position, the wrong board for the conditions and application, and poor paddle technique.

Keep it simple IMO: get a board designed to handle the conditions you paddle in, and learn how to paddle it when the going gets rough.

Pierre

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Re: Unlimiteds don't like to turn into the wind....
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2018, 07:53:51 AM »
@area10
quote
That arrangement is not needed for those conditions, and any problem being encountered is likely due to a combination of poor standing position, the wrong board for the conditions and application, and poor paddle technique. unquote

I fully believe and agree that you might be a super-expert paddler ( I know some of them like that ex C-ist as well)
now I may humbly pretend: why not make things easy ? i do not pretend to be a super paddler but I succeeded to make a podium (kahuna cat) at france championsihips... and I still promote the way to make things easy. i agree that why to turn a 14' or UL side or against wind when you may go only downwind? it may happen that you need! why to be stable sidewinds? it helps! why to step more ahead  and have a lateral Canoe-style paddle stance when, if you can arrange wind lateral force apply same as hull+appendage, and paddle easier with optimal balance? ,  when you need?
why to be unsafe when such piece of wood and/or fibreglass gives you additional safety it you need to turn upwind?

why to have a board designed for sidewind when you can hust have an appendage designed to improve accessibility in such conditions?
Olivier's"Paddllespot" board on the video is a 17'6'' (about) elliptical section shape which works great in flat water and light downbreezers it's unreal, narly PERFECT shape it just misses stability side winds/chop. the daggerboard transfprm it in anaccessible tool. why to say it's useless?

I confess he should  fit a rudder on the machine, then it becomes a awesome tool...


quote Keep it simple IMO: get a board designed to handle the conditions you paddle in, and learn how to paddle it when the going gets rough.unquote

In such case why to put daggerboard on sailng boats, huh??!! suggest only fixed keels and rudders! daggerboards have been invented in many different places, for performance but also safety.. americans had been very advanced in boat design since early 1800's, I guess not all turn idiot now... okayI agree toda's challengeis foiling but not only :P :D

it reminds me a rough D'winder couple years ago departure was sidewinds about 1 mile before the run, me and my tippy board semi-rounded section shape but with a removable daggerboard,my friend' same level as me but on a more accessible board) needed to kneel while I was standing with that wind, chop and backwash abeam, and paddling times the left, times on the right!... once lined on the run, i just removed daggerboard, and there starts the fun, without fatigue before... WHO got the best board? ME because I got faster either sidewinds or downwind, thanks to that 28" piece of wood!

Elitism is NOT the solution for anyone, after that ... Up 2U :)
\HF/- Hi-Fun Hydroworks / custom boards,BZH, since 1982  /  *Link Removed*

TallDude

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Re: Unlimiteds don't like to turn into the wind....
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2018, 11:28:04 AM »
I don't see a perfect setup for every condition. Years ago I was given an Infinity 16' with a front steering fin to test out. I worked on it with Steve Boehne building the reverse tiller arm. It was placed about 4' forward of center. The fin was about 5" tall and 5" deep with a center pivot. When it was locked in the straight position, it did track just like you'd expect with a dagger board, which was nice in side wind conditions. It would turn the board 180 deg quick even in strong wind. Almost too quick. It actually threw me a few times, before I learned to just barely steer it. Just a little was all it needed. The problem was when going into the wind a bigger chop / swell.  The nose would go air born off the top of a swell and sometimes the next face was coming from a different angle. When the board landed, the fin would catch on an off angle and just throw you. After battling with it for 30 minutes or so the steering mechanism couldn't take the beating and started to come apart. Maybe the fin was too big? I never DW'd it, but it did work well for our average windy conditions. Steve tried surfing it and he ended up hitting a surfer he knew :-[  Not good. He sold it and never made another one.     
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yugi

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Re: Unlimiteds don't like to turn into the wind....
« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2018, 11:57:11 AM »
Reminds me of the good ol' days windsurfing when we'd have [miraculously - holding the sail with one hand] yank the daggerboard and you'd be flying downwind; a water sprout squirting out the daggerboard-well, daggerboard hooked over your elbow, hitting alternatively the waves and your head.

Only the coolest survived.

PaddleSpot

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Re: Unlimiteds don't like to turn into the wind....
« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2018, 11:58:04 AM »

I’ve rarely seen a less convincing video. That arrangement is not needed for those conditions, and any problem being encountered is likely due to a combination of poor standing position, the wrong board for the conditions and application, and poor paddle technique.

Aha :) Thanks for the laugh  Area 10

The videos just show how the system is made and works, it's obviously not needed for those conditions, I'll ask the photograph to come back with 50 knots of wind :)

And thanks for the poor paddle technique. I'd love to see you paddling with 30 knots crosswind on a 18'. I've never met a guy doing it on ANY board and not complaining :) But everyone here in France has a  poor paddle technique I guess :-)
Olivier Drut
PaddleSpot.net  - Find your next SUP spot

Eagle

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Re: Unlimiteds don't like to turn into the wind....
« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2018, 12:01:12 PM »
"Mark Raaphorst did a beautiful switchblade ventral fin that he mounted far enough back that it was more like a daggerboard. Most of the Maui crew tried it, and the consensus was "very cool, and useful if you want to go upwind."

Hmm?  Too bad the design did not gain much traction.  That might be useful for our quick 2 mile upwind DW runs we often do around here.  Even on a 14V2.

The problem we have is the constant side push of the nose as you pound upwind.  Wind and wave action even at 10 kts forces you to compensate for heading changes.  That slows down progress upwind a lot.  So would be very interesting to see how much that switchblade ventral actually would help out.  Sounds like it worked quite well upwind.  Turning DW -> moving it to the closed position makes complete sense for quick turning and minimal drag.

So can appreciate the daggerboard approach noted.  Obviously can get by without - as have been doing that for years - but why not use it if it works and is available?  Keeping a straighter line upwind with less effort seems to make a lot of sense.  That solution seemed pretty reasonable -> especially for a 17 or 18 UL.

As noted the best UL paddled AW so far was that 17'11 One.  Something like the switchblade solution would no doubt help progress upwind.  But even then the steering was way more responsive than the 17'4 Bullet.  Could barely make any progress upwind crosswind in the Bullet in just a paltry 15 kts.  Just got pushed sideways.  Whereas others on 14s pounded away no problem.  Is a real problem.
Fast is FUN!   8)
Dominator - Touring Pintail - Bullet V2 - M14 - AS23

yugi

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Re: Unlimiteds don't like to turn into the wind....
« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2018, 12:02:59 PM »

...
it reminds me a rough D'winder couple years ago departure was sidewinds about 1 mile before the run, me and my tippy board semi-rounded section shape but with a removable daggerboard,my friend' same level as me but on a more accessible board) needed to kneel while I was standing with that wind, chop and backwash abeam, and paddling times the left, times on the right!... once lined on the run, i just removed daggerboard, and there starts the fun, without fatigue before... WHO got the best board? ME because I got faster either sidewinds or downwind, thanks to that 28" piece of wood!
...

Yes. Can't disagree with that.

But if you can do it simple...

This...

...

Keep it simple IMO: get a board designed to handle the conditions you paddle in, and learn how to paddle it when the going gets rough.

Trumps that.


I do love the ability to do more with less in a sport.

... especially if it is lighter.

burchas

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Re: Unlimiteds don't like to turn into the wind....
« Reply #22 on: September 25, 2018, 12:14:41 PM »
It was placed about 4' forward of center. The fin was about 5" tall and 5" deep with a center pivot.

Sounds like a classic case of wrong placement, wrong template. When I was bouncing that idea,
I was using the small ventral (2" deep with 9" base ) as a starting point.

The first 3" of the rudder are fixed right in the fin box, and the pivot point sit right behind it
breaking the fin right at the thickest part.  also serving as a weed deflector. Suggested placement
at 18" in front of the standing area.

Tiller arm connected directly to the fin with no more than 1/4 of and inch movement side to side,
due to torque. Never got around to produce it as the board works very well as is with a more
simplistic approach of the cutout ventral, but I might do it at some point

See attached rough sketch
in progress...

PaddleSpot

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Re: Unlimiteds don't like to turn into the wind....
« Reply #23 on: September 25, 2018, 12:46:28 PM »

Hmm?  Too bad the design did not gain much traction.  That might be useful for our quick 2 mile upwind DW runs we often do around here.  Even on a 14V2.

Just try this... a US box, a few drops of Sikaflex (easily removable), a small fin...

And enjoy the difference... I did that in 2013. The gain was so obvious, even on a 12'6, that two days later I was drilling my board...

Olivier Drut
PaddleSpot.net  - Find your next SUP spot

Eagle

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Re: Unlimiteds don't like to turn into the wind....
« Reply #24 on: September 25, 2018, 01:35:18 PM »
... I did that in 2013. The gain was so obvious, even on a 12'6, that two days later I was drilling my board...
Hmm very interesting.  Good to see a big benefit on shorter length boards as well.  But would like to see what Mark actually designed and fabricated as his ventral "switchblade" solution.  Would suspect that he could implement that into any SIC board with an optimized placement if requested.

But doubt that we will cut up any boards we have.  As they do pretty much exactly what we expect from them as designed.  All are still in pretty much like new condition.  But if we had a cheap extra board -> would def "experiment".

Sounds like your daggerboard is working out well for your use.  So no need to argue with that.  Personally if we could have only one board -> would go with that pintail 17'11 One at 24 or 25 wide.  The 25 was very stable so maybe the 24 would be better suited with lower drag.  Steering worked fantastic and board scooted along very efficiently.  With a SIC "switchblade" and its easy to turn rudder -> that board could handle most AW conditions thrown this way.  ;)
Fast is FUN!   8)
Dominator - Touring Pintail - Bullet V2 - M14 - AS23

Pierre

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Re: Unlimiteds don't like to turn into the wind....
« Reply #25 on: September 25, 2018, 03:15:20 PM »
Reminds me of the good ol' days windsurfing when we'd have [miraculously - holding the sail with one hand] yank the daggerboard and you'd be flying downwind; a water sprout squirting out the daggerboard-well, daggerboard hooked over your elbow, hitting alternatively the waves and your head.

Only the coolest survived.
I put tape  as lips below the well.before result was same while down winding, except my well was much smaller.
\HF/- Hi-Fun Hydroworks / custom boards,BZH, since 1982  /  *Link Removed*

surfercook

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Re: Unlimiteds don't like to turn into the wind....
« Reply #26 on: September 29, 2018, 09:16:17 PM »
Very cool. Sounds like an 18' board is a tough paddler. against all that wind and swell. I always want to bring my phone too.
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