Author Topic: Fanatic Aero 1500 Foil  (Read 3590 times)

SURFFOILS

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Re: Fanatic Aero 1500 Foil
« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2018, 02:19:45 AM »
Hi SCB, itís a great testament to the foil industry that they are willing to search for innovation that progresses the riders experience.
 Hereís my version of the swept single from 2009.
 Lift comes from both the Ďfoil of the foilí and the surface area , itís a sliding scale depending on speed, AOA and wave shape.
 Iím on FB with constant innovation and new ideas for foils.
 No products to sell but I am happy to give away my knowledge.
 

Beasho

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Re: Fanatic Aero 1500 Foil
« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2018, 06:32:46 AM »
I feel vindicated that my foil ideas of using thin and low aspect foils are now being manufactured and that they are faster and easier to ride.
  ĎMore manouverable and higher top speed.í
 Just as I said a few years ago.
 The other manufacturers will have to follow this design if they havenít got something similar in the lab already.

OMG!

SURFOILS - I am getting that tingly Spidey Sense that I get when I see something totally new but my gut just knows that it is RIGHT ON THE MONEY!

This could be the solution to 'our' big wave foiling dilemma.  The current foils get overwhelmed too quickly at speed.  This 'Thing' could be adapted to take the tail off as well. 

« Last Edit: September 21, 2018, 06:37:35 AM by Beasho »

Beasho

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Re: Fanatic Aero 1500 Foil
« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2018, 06:51:22 AM »
My kids were even calling me a Kook when I did this test with No-Tailwing. 

Something still feels 'off' when it comes to the tailwing.  I know it works and helps with low-speed flight.  But by my calculations it is adding 15% to drag because of the DOWN FORCE it imparts on the fuselage.  When going over 17 mph the big tails with Cessna style wings become unmanageable.

The SWEPT WING ADDRESSES THIS


This setup also felt very twitchy, probably difficult to ride in the waves BUT . . . oh yeah I only spent 10 minutes trying.  As with Piros it may take time to learn to fly these things.  Just like little kids don't get to hop on a short-board their first day of surfing and start ripping like Kelly Slater.

« Last Edit: September 21, 2018, 07:13:11 AM by Beasho »

Beasho

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Re: Fanatic Aero 1500 Foil
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2018, 06:59:30 AM »
The GoFoil design has changed VERY LITTLE since Kai first flew on an ELONGATED DOWNWIND board.

There was in incredible cantilevered weight in the form of 10 Feet of Nose. Without the huge downforce on the tail he may never have flown.

Since then the 'designers' just made bigger wings. There was little attention paid to the physics of what was going on underwater for the tailwing. Empirically they worked in small to medium sized waves. Anyone who has ever tried to take off on a steep 8 to 10 foot +++ face knows that the current configuration is compromised. The overwhelming front foot pressure is barely controllable I call it "Over-Foiling."

The dream is to pump up onto a non-breaking 15+ foot face and then race down the line, away from the death zone, flying free.

The Swept Wing MAY Solve Deliver the DREAM!!!!!!

Here is the video of Kai's progression.

Have we been Putting Race Car bodies on Cadillac chassis?


« Last Edit: September 21, 2018, 07:22:15 AM by Beasho »

Bean

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Re: Fanatic Aero 1500 Foil
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2018, 08:02:21 AM »
Surfoils, that's uncanny for sure. 

PonoBill

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Re: Fanatic Aero 1500 Foil
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2018, 08:11:08 AM »
Fundamental to the design of anything is to build on what currently works. Fundamental to marketing is things that look radically different from currently successful products won't compete well. Both factors work to limit innovation. It's the major reason why big monopolies or semi-monopolies are rarely innovative. Anything as expensive as a team needs to have a high likelihood of success. Someone working alone, like SurfFoils, has the luxury of doing whatever he damned well pleases.

Case in point, I'm still sorely tempted to build the foil system I designed. But it's been a ridiculously busy summer, building my ridiculous motorhome project--and it ain't done. I doubt I can do much in Maui except play, it's just too cumbersome. Maybe next summer will work.

There is a guy on Maui that built a reasonably useful swept wing foil with no tail. I'll keep an eye out for him this year and perhaps work some with him. The drag of the stabilizer is dynamic. If you have to push the foil around to control it I suspect it's a lot more than 15%. That's perhaps a good figure for dragging the foil in a stable attitude, but it's like measuring rudder drag with the rudder aiming straight ahead. In many cases the drag more than triples when the rudder is actuated to cause a turn. Do a buoy turn in an OC1 and you get an instant understanding of rudder drag. It's huge.

The stabilizer is doing the same thing, only in the vertical plane. All of this stuff is why aeronautical engineers spent all that time trying to build flying wings with no or fixed rudders--much more efficient, and much less stable. It gets a lot more important in water, with 1000 times the density of air.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2018, 08:23:20 AM by PonoBill »
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Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

Bean

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Re: Fanatic Aero 1500 Foil
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2018, 08:57:32 AM »
Fundamental to marketing is things that look radically different from currently successful products won't compete well.

I guess that's, at least in part, why electric cars like Tesla are currently designed to look like their preedecessors. 

SURFFOILS

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Re: Fanatic Aero 1500 Foil
« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2018, 03:30:34 AM »
Beasho,  the Fanantic foil is just a first step, Iím sure all foil Ďdesignersí would be reading this and other forums and looking for inspiration.
 All it takes is a 20 second video showing new performance on a new foil design and all the makers will have to catch up.
 Youíve already proved in your video that the rear foil isnít needed.
 Ive also had people call me a kook in the surf and itís just laughable how little they know of life, surf and design but theyíve got cool Tatts so Iím impressed by their  knowledgeable opinion.
Longer single foils are more stable over a wide range of speeds and a true top speed is going to be phenomenal if you get a big long wall thatís moving fast and closing fast. Itís a pity I donít live near you or Iím sure we could make some amazing progress with foil design.
But for the average surfer a swept single foil is going to make foiling easier and quicker to learn.
 ďOver Foiling ď is a great description, twin foils are amazing in the huge arena of low energy waves, itís been like opening another world to surf in but they donít like steep hollow waves. A single foil will be easier to make and with the right area distribution can be adapted for all sorts of waves. I definately think I could put together a foil for Mavericks. I wouldnít worry in the slightest about lift, my only concern would be for very high speed stability. You could potentially cover 100 yards in a few seconds.

Bean, Yes itís uncanny that I did the same foil design 9 years ago but it shows thereís a familiar design progression given the same parameters. Iím sure other designers have looked at the same idea too. The next step would be to ĎClose the Circleí of the tips and form a central planing area. Like a bicycle, a foil doesnít need to be 2 feet wide, 13 inches is stable enough at speed. And once that step is taken and seen to be functional, itíll open another world of new designs.

 PonoBill, Id be keen to see what foil designs you have hidden but Im sure this Fanatic foil will spur other makers to compete and innovate.
Iíd be getting the team together and over a few beers get everyone to embrace a new paradigm and just let the thoughts flow and then the next day, set to making them happen.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2018, 03:38:52 AM by SURFFOILS »

surfcowboy

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Re: Fanatic Aero 1500 Foil
« Reply #23 on: September 22, 2018, 07:28:43 AM »
Surffoils in that last shot is literally dusting off old designs. LOL thatís awesome.

Beasho my new mast is easy to mount to. I could probably mock up a plywood model of one of these and mount it. Anyone got dims?

The Axis fuselage would work too with minimal work. SUPUK (chased away by something or someone, no doubt) is riding one. Super stiff and strong solid aluminum. The tail will likely need a small attachment for support but that can be minimal Iíll bet if the nose mount is stiff enough.

SanoSlatchSup

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Re: Fanatic Aero 1500 Foil
« Reply #24 on: September 22, 2018, 12:07:39 PM »
Beasho, 

Itís a pity I donít live near you or Iím sure we could make some amazing progress with foil design.

I definately think I could put together a foil for Mavericks. I wouldnít worry in the slightest about lift, my only concern would be for very high speed stability. You could potentially cover 100 yards in a few seconds.
SF, in today's small world, distance really shouldn't be the impeding factor of innovation IMO. I'm sure that since you have...

Quote from: SURFFOILS
Iím on FB with constant innovation and new ideas for foils.
No products to sell but I am happy to give away my knowledge.
...and that I believe Beash does all of his own testing for his own curiosity, and not for profit...that I'm sure that if you were to send him that wing, or whatever wing(s) you believe best suited for his test locale, that you could both figure out the monetary sharing of the shipping fees, and whatever it would take to design, build, and get them back and forth to make it equitable to the two of you.

I guess all I'm saying is that I'd hate for future innovations that would push our sport ahead leaps and bounds (if that indeed is what the testing bears out) to be thwarted before they ever get off the ground just because of some shipping costs or distance between shaper, tester, and/or test site would be an absolute shame.

Heck maybe a "Zoner Kickstarter" type of thing might be another option if need be; because I know you, and others here have piqued my interest in these "new/old" wing shapes, and would love to get my hands on them if/when the testing proves their improvements over what we only have available now, and would being able to buy, use, test, and/or advertise them at my local break as well.

Just my thoughts, and I suppose dismay if distance is the only thing throwing a monkey wrench in the works.  :(
« Last Edit: September 22, 2018, 12:10:25 PM by SanoSlatchSup »
Me: 6'1"/200...5'11" Chelu Foil Board...9'6" Bob Pearson "Laird Noserider"...9'6" Costa Azul Wide Body...14' Lahui Kai "Manta"...8'0" WaveStorm for when proning urges still hit, and 7'3" Chuck Glynn foil board backup.

SURFFOILS

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Re: Fanatic Aero 1500 Foil
« Reply #25 on: September 22, 2018, 01:52:31 PM »
SCB, Iíve got a hundred or more foils stashed under the house, Iíve got a Foiling journal of notes for every session on every foil so I can always refer back. Makes it easier to avoid repeating mistakes.
 When you stretch area around you need to add area because it loses effectiveness. In the reverse way when you use a single central foil, you can use less area because a centred planing area is more effective.

Looking deeper into the physics of hydrodynamic design, theres a world of areas and angles that Dont affect lift, theyíre virtually useless for lift or control. They donít work but can be useful.  Look at the  foil and see the thinner chord area at the front. Itís not big enough to give lift but it provides physical stability to the larger side foil pods without messing up the feel I want. We see a rectangle with a hole in the middle, the water sees a U. The effect is a very stable, wide and long lifting area with 2 long lateral foils for steep waves. A rear block that creates projection under your back foot and front side tips for stability in turns like on a standard foil today. It keeps the drive under your back foot and the directional control at the front.
 
SSS,  about the 100 yards, I meant it not as a goal but as an indication that I believe big wave foiling will be incredibly fast like downhill skiing.
Youíll reach that point on the precipice, and then a massive acceleration.
 Theres a lot of form drag, tailfoil drag and getting rid of those drags will open up higher speeds. That experience should make your hair sizzle Beasho.

 This sweep wing idea is already confirmed as PonoBill says he knows someone else who rides swept wings so letís go forward from there.  Thereís a lot more to come.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2018, 02:35:31 PM by SURFFOILS »

SURFFOILS

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Re: Fanatic Aero 1500 Foil
« Reply #26 on: September 23, 2018, 07:05:52 PM »
If thatís too far ahead, maybe we can meet here again next year and see where foilings at.

SURFFOILS

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Re: Fanatic Aero 1500 Foil
« Reply #27 on: October 26, 2018, 04:36:26 AM »
Now this is the review that reveals the strengths of this foils design.

https://www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Kitesurfing/Foiling/Fanatic-Aero-Surf-Foil-1500

exiled

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Re: Fanatic Aero 1500 Foil
« Reply #28 on: October 26, 2018, 02:45:21 PM »
Yeah, but that's on a kite. If a thin foil can't get a rider up on gutless barely breaking slop than I think you are missing what is making foil gain its popularity.

SURFFOILS

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Re: Fanatic Aero 1500 Foil
« Reply #29 on: October 27, 2018, 12:57:47 PM »
Foiling is popular because itís fun. As foil design evolves it opens up wider opportunities to foil. This design review shows that by curving the foil it holds power better.
 These benefits will open up other parts of the wave like the tube and then foiling will be even more fun and popular.