Paddling slower, Going faster

[ukgm]

Re: smaller blade advantages - smaller blades reduce swing weight and windage, and also make it easier to get the shaft vertical. However a principal advantage is that while lots of slippage of the blade is highly undesirable, none at all is very tough on the body. Most people find a happy compromise that reduces “catch shock” when you first sink the blade and start pulling, but not so much that the blade slips greatly an cavitation. Any loss of initial momentary acceleration is more than made up for by a slightly faster stroke rate and a lot less fatigue. It’s like the gears on a bike - running in top gear the whole time might be fast for a short while but the strain on your body would be immense, especially when conditions get difficult.

To add to this - a smaller blade will likely lead to a higher cadence for the same speed (which in turn places higher demands on your V02 max demands). It's about matching the blade to the paddler but a lot of this is actually trainable - I've had some seasons whereby I've spent my winters training on high or low gears on the bike for specific reasons (typically for racing short distance events) or on the SUP (whereby I've done strength/development work on the board).

[Ichabod Spoonbill]

I've been working on this lately too. I'm probably never going to be a really fast paddler, and I don't care enough about racing to make the effort. I do care about having an efficient stroke, so lately I've been working on getting that torso twist in on each stroke. It hurst like hell after a while, but those are my core muscles complaining, so it's probably what I need anyway.

here ? I really have been feeling it here on this slower/twistier stroke.

Yes, definitely there. Of course as a middle-aged guy, that's exactly where I need the exercise.

[Quickbeam]

Thanks for adding that, it's not a technique to use consistently--I do it to force my elbow low, then relax and get my wrist straight while keeping my elbow down. A high elbow is not only weak, but it also can fire up your shoulders and back, even if you don't notice it while your paddling. My tendency is to lift my elbow to shoulder height or above, and that's a weak position.

You’re welcome. I’d hate to see someone go through the same thing I did if it was preventable.

[yugi]

Re: smaller blade advantages - smaller blades reduce swing weight and windage, and also make it easier to get the shaft vertical. However a principal advantage is that while lots of slippage of the blade is highly undesirable, none at all is very tough on the body. Most people find a happy compromise that reduces “catch shock” when you first sink the blade and start pulling, but not so much that the blade slips greatly an cavitation. Any loss of initial momentary acceleration is more than made up for by a slightly faster stroke rate and a lot less fatigue. It’s like the gears on a bike - running in top gear the whole time might be fast for a short while but the strain on your body would be immense, especially when conditions get difficult.

To add to this - a smaller blade will likely lead to a higher cadence for the same speed (which in turn places higher demands on your V02 max demands). It's about matching the blade to the paddler but a lot of this is actually trainable - I've had some seasons whereby I've spent my winters training on high or low gears on the bike for specific reasons (typically for racing short distance events) or on the SUP (whereby I've done strength/development work on the board).

I don't find a smaller blade is like a lower gear. I probably even pant and hold water better with the smaller blade.

Cadence (using the same stroke) is directly related to board speed.

A smaller blade is a bit quicker flicking it in and out, yes, there is a slight gain there.

[yugi]

… so I switched to a   r e a l l y s l o w stroke - sort of. Going  deliberately…plant the blade,breathoutandpullhard… glide and stand. .. for two.. breaths… now reach out, plant the blade,breathoutandpullhard, glide and stand... well as much glide as my iSup has - it's not terrible - 2015 Red Elite 14'x26" . So being REALLY deliberate on a hard stroke with lots of rest between....I wasn't much slower.
 …

 If a complete stroke is CATCH / PULL / EXIT / RECOVERY
 
 As a general rule you want to minimize RECOVERY time, and move fast from EXIT to CATCH. And make that a habit.
 
 If you want to use a slow powerful stroke plant your catch well forward, drive it down deep, and get your rest by leaning on the blade.
 
 Being able to lean on your blade requires a good “positive” angle as it is planted.
 

[Luc Benac]

I have tried to keep track of the stroke rate vs. Distance Per Stroke and the theoretical speed depending on paddle size and board.
It is not Gospel as this is not measurement on a flat reservoir protected from the wind a la UGKM but subject to all kind of conditions with the exception of down-winding.

[ukgm]

1) I don't find a smaller blade is like a lower gear. I probably even pant and hold water better with the smaller blade.

2) Cadence (using the same stroke) is directly related to board speed.

3) A smaller blade is a bit quicker flicking it in and out, yes, there is a slight gain there.

1) I wonder if your technique and efficiency may well be better with your smaller blade. Athlete paddling power generally is a product of stroke rate and applied force (minus any efficiency losses) so if you mess with one, you can see what needs to happen to keep the power output the same to maintain the same speed.

I do wonder though if uptil this point, we've all been using paddle blades that were too large and therefore the reductions we've made in recent times doesn't reduce the catch quality and a smaller size is adequate for now. What do you think ? I wonder how small we should be going. Black Project are currently really bucking the trends and going very small. I like it but this suits my sporting background probably.

2) Cadence in general ? yes, I agree with you. There are a few studies that support that in both swimming, kayaking a some other paddle sports. It's not foolproof but its the best thing left in lieu of a lack of a power meter. You may well also have seen that Vaaka also use that as their main training philosophy for their cadence sensors too.

3) Yep, - the corresponding aerodynamic drag is reduced for sure. That's been recorded in K1 kayaking with computational fluid dynamic simulations in some papers.

[ukgm]

I have tried to keep track of the stroke rate vs. Distance Per Stroke and the theoretical speed depending on paddle size and board.
It is not Gospel as this is not measurement on a flat reservoir protected from the wind a la UGKM but subject to all kind of conditions with the exception of down-winding.

Interesting. Lots to think about here. Thanks for sharing this.

[Luc Benac]

I have tried to keep track of the stroke rate vs. Distance Per Stroke and the theoretical speed depending on paddle size and board.
It is not Gospel as this is not measurement on a flat reservoir protected from the wind a la UGKM but subject to all kind of conditions with the exception of down-winding.

Interesting. Lots to think about here. Thanks for sharing this.

I would gladly send you the Excel file with the data if of any help of interest.

[PonoBill]

I used to believe that cadence was hardwired, that some people like high cadence and some do better with low. People who had high cadence "needed" a small paddle, those with low needed big. I don't know why I thought that it seems like nonsense now.

Cadence is something the paddler controls, and if you are paddling efficiently, it's related to board speed and technique. The greater your ability to get and hold a solid catch, the less blade you need. If you aren't slipping with a 60, then that's what you need. Not many people can pull that off, but I've seen a lot of really great, very powerful paddlers with very small blades lately. I credit Kalama, Puakea and Cain with that.

[Luc Benac]

I have teh same for DW but of course this is a lot less relevant as conditions will also dictate what stroke you need.

[Eagle]

As noted the past couple of years have used mostly the 430 sq cm Enduro AW which is around 67 sq in.  Going to my "normal" HA 500 sq in or 78 sq in blade feels foreign and puts more strain for the same speed.  Still use it -> but seem to go more for the smaller blade now.  Def am not a really great very powerful paddler -> but seems to work just fine with minimal slip.  For DW still use the huge 116 Vantage as the wind pushes so hard from behind -> a small blade just has insufficient grip for the higher board speed.

"I have more recently been using smaller blades to help with my lower back issues, and also to help adapt with my high cadence paddle style. I’ve been using the Starboard Enduro XS 430 for SUP Surfing and the High Aspect M for most races in sprints and flat water. If I am downwind paddling, I might opt for a tad larger blade and more lengthy shaft because of the higher speeds we are reaching and need for reach when at the crest of swells."

https://www.sup-internationalmag.com/knowledge-shafts-n-blades/

"Connor Baxter used the Bolt M and would like to have a larger paddle, so we developed the Lima L, the size moves from 510 cm2 to 531 cm2.

Fiona Wylde used the Bolt S at 480 cm2, now she will mostly use the LIMA M at 485 cm2."

https://www.trioceansurf.co.uk/surf-shop/stand-up-paddle-boards-sups/sup-paddles/starboard-lima-paddle-2018-carbonbalsa/

[deepmud]

… so I switched to a   r e a l l y s l o w stroke - sort of. Going  deliberately…plant the blade,breathoutandpullhard… glide and stand. .. for two.. breaths… now reach out, plant the blade,breathoutandpullhard, glide and stand... well as much glide as my iSup has - it's not terrible - 2015 Red Elite 14'x26" . So being REALLY deliberate on a hard stroke with lots of rest between....I wasn't much slower.
 …

 If a complete stroke is CATCH / PULL / EXIT / RECOVERY
 
 As a general rule you want to minimize RECOVERY time, and move fast from EXIT to CATCH. And make that a habit.
 
 If you want to use a slow powerful stroke plant your catch well forward, drive it down deep, and get your rest by leaning on the blade.
 
 Being able to lean on your blade requires a good “positive” angle as it is planted.

I do know I do better wasting less time between strokes - this was a deliberate exaggeration of the "diesel stroke" - it seems like it told me that the slow cadence  - very slow cadence - wasn't costing as much as I would expect. Really - I thought I would be REALLY SLOW - like not even  4mph average but it seemed to only cost a few tenths to maybe a 1/2 mph.  Maybe I was applying a lot more torque to each stroke ? Regardless - it was sort of the opposite of what I expected as a result.

What is a positive angle? Vertical? So the 15 degrees built into the paddle is there to lean on? Or a little less than vertical -  Early on (3 years ago ) I was really driving it down and back - holding my arms stiff and trying to make my abs do the initial drive, and I was not getting it vertical so I could "lean on it" -  Ttying to make my last 6-7 years where I finally learned to NOT use my arms kayaking apply to SUP, I sort of turned my kayak torque twist sideways. Now - it's more like the kayak torque again - but not exactly.

I've been hung up on "smaller paddle is lower gears" before - I think I understand it's for higher cadence, that it isn't literally lower gears - that would just be a shorter paddle? like choking down on the paddle in wind?  But it's lower gears, in that it forces a higher cadence - sure. I can accept that.

If it's primarily to avoid stress - I guess I should look ahead and plan for smaller blades to avoid future injury - but is it possible that the scale of the person is part of this? I have big shoulders - big bones, big wrists, fingers like sausages and if I ever get down to 225 again I'll be damn skinny/low body fat if my muscle mass is even 85% what it is now. Is my scale of joints absorbing some of the largish blade shock? That and my flexy Ke Nalu shaft? If my board is carrying a lot more - might I just be stuck with a bigger paddle to avoid excessive slip? Tugboat not speedboat?  I'm not sure I'll get as much benefit from a 1 or 2 oz lighter paddle when I can focus on losing another 10 pounds and save the $250 for something else. I will say my old 3 piece feels like I'm swinging a shovel compared to the Ke Nalu. No doubt I liked and felt the lighter weight. Maybe the reality is that I need to spend a LOT more to get another level of light/fast paddle.

It's all academic as now - but I'll be reading/mentally prepping for next year. Wish me luck on my new 1/2 left knee  tomorrow

[ukgm]

1) I used to believe that cadence was hardwired, that some people like high cadence and some do better with low. People who had high cadence "needed" a small paddle, those with low needed big. I don't know why I thought that it seems like nonsense now.

2) Not many people can pull that off, but I've seen a lot of really great, very powerful paddlers with very small blades lately. I credit Kalama, Puakea and Cain with that.

1) There is certainly a preference. However, there is a degree of trainability and adaptation possible. However, there is probably an optimum efficiency but because it is likely a dynamic combination of blade size, shaft length and intended speed, I wouldn't even know where to begin to start. It's very complicated I would say.

2) ..... and having spoken to some manufacturers who sponsor pro's recently, they tell me that in the main, the elites are still progressively going smaller for the blade and/or shorter on the shaft. I'm still not sure what board I'm on next year but the second I find out, another couple of inches is coming off my shaft length I think.

[ukgm]

The greater your ability to get and hold a solid catch, the less blade you need. If you aren't slipping with a 60, then that's what you need.

Just to pick up on this point, as a little experiment for anyone to try, go out on your board with the smallest paddle blade you can lay your hands on (a kids sized paddle would be ideal), place it in the water and then do a single stroke. You'll be amazed at how little surface area you actually need to still get a solid catch. Its only the fact we're in a hurry that the inefficiencies creep in. I'm becoming increasingly of the opinion that the 'normal' range of 90-95 inch surface area should in fact be considered 'large' and that as a sport, racers in particular are using blades too big still.

(this all said, can I just say how much I still love training with my Quickblade 'Big Mama Kalama' 130sq inch behemoth. It's a shoulder wrecker if used incorrectly but you really feel like you've had a workout when you get off the water).