Author Topic: Paddling slower, Going faster  (Read 3522 times)

Luc Benac

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Re: Paddling slower, Going faster
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2018, 03:04:22 PM »
Distances as recorded on my Garmin Vivoactive , the file been downloaded as a GPX and used in another software , always come quite a bit shorter than as shown on my Velocitek Makai. i.e. 12 km become 11.5
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deepmud

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Re: Paddling slower, Going faster
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2018, 03:15:34 PM »
Sounds like you're getting it, mud. Cool. And SUP will be great rehab for your knee when spring comes.

Like the Navy Seals say: Slow is smooth and smooth is fast.

Swimming is a very good analogy. In swimming it is clear that the better the swimmer the longer the glide per stroke.

Which is why, in swimming, the measure of efficiency is stroke index. Basically the measure of a better stroke.  Used to improve swimming technique.

In SUP we aren't as attached to this as hard and fast rule. I remember watching a race this year, I think it was Carolina Cup, where Connor Baxter and someone else are sprinting to finish. Both going the same speed and Baxter using a much higher cadence.

OK, Baxter is a a different kind of paddler who has many strokes in his toolbox. We may see the "diesel stroke" become more the norm for flat water paddling as a new generation of racers emerge that weren't first surfers.

Just to say that in SUP depending on the situation there are more tools than one. For example upwind you want to plant your blade on the top of a wave so you end up with a very irregular cadence.

UKGM, we can argue in another thread why Stroke Index is a measure of the paddler "diesel stroke" efficiency and not a measure of board drag.   ;)

Diesel stroke :D - weird but I was out last night, trying to duplicate results - not quite getting what I wanted, I was a fairly tired 6:20 1/2mile , so I switched to a   r e a l l y s l o w stroke - sort of. Going  deliberately…plant the blade,breathoutandpullhard… glide and stand. .. for two.. breaths… now reach out, plant the blade,breathoutandpullhard, glide and stand... well as much glide as my iSup has - it's not terrible - 2015 Red Elite 14'x26" . So being REALLY deliberate on a hard stroke with lots of rest between....I wasn't much slower. 4.75 mph average (on both my Samsung and my Vivoactive  ) - so within .25 mph. This loads up my lower back "twist muscles" - very similar to my kayak stroke, but one sided until I switch. BTW _ this stroke hoses the Vivoactive stroke counter - it's like it counts more strokes and very short ones when actually it's mostly a long glide/slow-down between power strokes. Instead of 20 foot strokes it's like 5 or 6 foot strokes.

I think if I work on the "diesel stroke" and try to minimize the time between strokes - that's my efficient pace that I can do for long periods of time.

Speed calcs - well - there is "at the end" and "at the moment" both available. I run ViewRanger on my Samsung, and compare it with the Garmin - I can't start them at the same time but if I select the same sections of track that Garmin has marked as "Lap" - it's a 1/2 mile on both the devices - at least on the maps when I view them online. They are very close if not the same.

Wind - teeny amount behind me 2 days ago - I still could feel wind in my face. Not flat calm. In fact - heading up wind I was about 4.5mph vs 5.0 so maybe a bit of wind?  - but there were other factors, like paddling a mile in choppy water before getting away from that speed boat in the upper lake, then heading back. That kicked my butt - the Red Elite is NOT stable. Last night paddling - dead flat calm.

I'm slowly building my reply here - not keeping up with the other replies sorry - but next week I'll have days and days to read up and watch videos and dream of next season - or maybe even some winter paddling, I should finally fit my 3x Oneal drysuit now that I'm below  280.

EDIT (while I still can) -- some screen caps of ViewRanger (lets me select of track and it recalcs speed for that section) and the long view from Vivoactive, showing pace at any given point - and heart rate. I must be really using the anaerobic energy for the first 20-25 minutes - my heart rate is like I'm mowing the lawn or something, but you can see the speed is up there......
EDIT again - Hmm - pics should be "diesel fast" first - that was first - then "diesel slow" - and near the end of that at almost 1.5 miles of paddles ( I did an easy half mile between) my heart rate finally climbs up and burns steam till the end of the night.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2018, 03:29:26 PM by deepmud »

deepmud

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Re: Paddling slower, Going faster
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2018, 03:30:58 PM »
Search Youtube for stroke video by John Puakea

i.e.


I've watched this a few times - I will again - maybe I can make a thread on stroke technique if there isn't one already - put them all in a row with Zoner commentary. I really find BOTH of those things helpful- the video is better for with the commentary for sure.

deepmud

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Re: Paddling slower, Going faster
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2018, 03:39:27 PM »
There are times when the board moves so much faster with less effort.  So all of this hits home.  Spending "time" to get the paddle fully inserted before loading helps quite a bit, for starters.

It would seem, while accelerating, that a bigger paddle would need to slip less, give more purchase, allow slower turnover, a longer stroke interval under load, and a smaller amount of time overall out of the water.  Lower turnover might also make finding the optimal form easier, compared to a smaller paddle at higher SPM. 

Most surf paddlers, including some of the very best local performers use a small paddle and windmill violently with arms and shoulders, and do not appear to load the paddle very much with their body.  Perhaps, why so many of them have had shoulder reconstruction after years of impingement, sometimes both shoulders, or, at least have to stop and recover for some months.

yeah - me too  .... I'm doing very little arm/shoulder movement, though I am experimenting with a "shove/straighten" of my upper arm just after the blade is "planted" - I'm getting the shaft vertical quickly, then really pulling/loading up the blade as I push DOWN and BACK - and when the blade is just by/behind my feet- I am imagining the blade is about to go PAST vertical - out it comes and whip forward and reach for the next stroke......I'm getting a strong sensation of pulling myself TO the blade in this that I didn't before. I feel like if I could just lose another 50 :D I'd be almost respectably fast - at least on a mile or more run. Less work lifting my heavy body up for the next stroke, less work with the SUP not sunk so low in the water too. It really sprays out the water in front at 5mph.

deepmud

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Re: Paddling slower, Going faster
« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2018, 03:45:25 PM »
I've been working on this lately too. I'm probably never going to be a really fast paddler, and I don't care enough about racing to make the effort. I do care about having an efficient stroke, so lately I've been working on getting that torso twist in on each stroke. It hurst like hell after a while, but those are my core muscles complaining, so it's probably what I need anyway.

here ? I really have been feeling it here on this slower/twistier stroke.



deepmud

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Re: Paddling slower, Going faster
« Reply #20 on: September 14, 2018, 03:50:16 PM »
Both Johnny Puakea and Dave Kalama teach essentially the same stroke. Watching their videos will help a lot. Paddling an OC6 teaches your that paddle speed faster than boat speed is generally wasted energy unless everyone in the boat has the power to go faster. If you think about it a little, what's happening when you pull the paddle faster than the board is going? Mostly the blade will slip through the water--lost energy just making the water churn. Some slip is inevitable, and if you're trying to make the board accelerate, you have to pull the blade faster than the board is going. But a lot of effort that "hard" paddlers make is just turned into a tiny bit of added heat in the water.

For heavy guys this is even more important. A 300 pound OC6 can easily weigh 1200 pounds with six paddlers in it. Nothing great happens when one person is pulling harder and faster. I'm 230,and I've been paddling for more than ten years. Over time my blades have gotten smaller, my stroke much more deliberate, and even though I'm older and weaker I make about the same peak and sustained speeds as when I was pulling harder and faster.

I wish I'd started this 15 -20 years ago - when I was 35 I finally got my bench press over 350 and could work out with 300 easy. When I was 18 I was 185,  benching 300 but I could run a 5:10 mile too.  I doubt I could bench 300 now, but 275 likely and if I got back into it over 300 in a month or so. Still pretty strong at 50. I can't run for crap tho'. Maybe with new knees.

PonoBill

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Re: Paddling slower, Going faster
« Reply #21 on: September 14, 2018, 07:46:07 PM »
Get some hips into your stroke and the mid-back stuff will turn into a deep massage. You fire your hips forward at the middle to end of your stroke. If I forget to do that, not only am I slower but that night my back will be creaky. When I fire the hips my back feels like warm butter.

Also, when you plant the blade, lean forward like Johnny says, but push the blade into the water with the forward motion, like sticking a letter into an envelope slot. Keep pushing down, but slow for a microsecond to let the water stabilize and the air leave the blade, then push down more than you pull. The difference between doing this well or not is whether you need a 95 blade or an 82. If you get a full clean catch an 82 will pull you off the board. If you don't, a 95 is barely enough.

Last but not least, check the position of your upper arm and wrist. If your wrist is straight and your elbow is high, you can't put much pressure on the blade. When I catch myself doing that I break my upper wrist downward, which brings my elbow down. You can put twice as much downward pressure on the blade then, which maintains the catch and shoves the board forward.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2018, 08:05:48 PM by PonoBill »
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deepmud

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Re: Paddling slower, Going faster
« Reply #22 on: September 14, 2018, 10:04:27 PM »
Thanks Bill.. I'm already visualizing the blade sticking... Maybe this Christmas I can get smaller blade.
I managed to hit the 6:01 1/2 mile while doing a very deliberate slow high torque stroke, totally glass flat water .... Check out the weirdly low heartbeat. Screen shot is my 4 miles on Garmin. The fast 1/2 mile is from 12 minutes to 21 you can see the slow down between segments.
Edit ;anb yes lower back like walrm butter :) hot but not painful
« Last Edit: September 14, 2018, 10:12:25 PM by deepmud »

PonoBill

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Re: Paddling slower, Going faster
« Reply #23 on: September 15, 2018, 09:54:51 PM »
That would be a high heart rate for me. I have a genetically low heart rate--I can't get much past 130.
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Quickbeam

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Re: Paddling slower, Going faster
« Reply #24 on: September 16, 2018, 10:39:47 AM »
Last but not least, check the position of your upper arm and wrist. If your wrist is straight and your elbow is high, you can't put much pressure on the blade. When I catch myself doing that I break my upper wrist downward, which brings my elbow down. You can put twice as much downward pressure on the blade then, which maintains the catch and shoves the board forward.

A lot of good ideas in this thread. Just a word of caution though about “breaking your wrist down”. I had a pretty serious case of golfer’s elbow and it took me a long time to figure out that it was a downward break in my wrist (otherwise known as “extension”) that was causing it. It’s a long story, some of which was detailed in the “Training, Diet and  Fitness” category (https://www.standupzone.com/forum/index.php/topic,25795.45.html), but the golfers’ elbow I had was no joke. It was not only painful, but it also really derailed my ability to paddle.

Just something to be aware of.
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PonoBill

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Re: Paddling slower, Going faster
« Reply #25 on: September 16, 2018, 03:24:11 PM »
Thanks for adding that, it's not a technique to use consistently--I do it to force my elbow low, then relax and get my wrist straight while keeping my elbow down. A high elbow is not only weak, but it also can fire up your shoulders and back, even if you don't notice it while your paddling. My tendency is to lift my elbow to shoulder height or above, and that's a weak position.
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Luc Benac

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Re: Paddling slower, Going faster
« Reply #26 on: September 16, 2018, 04:01:24 PM »
Now that down-winding season is winding down, I am working again on my stroke. I use a Black Project Hydro 78 (76.9 sqi).
I can attest that when a paddle is planted properly, you get a work-out even of a small paddle. After that the Mana 82 feels like a power monster.
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Ichabod Spoonbill

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Re: Paddling slower, Going faster
« Reply #27 on: September 16, 2018, 05:07:44 PM »
I've been forcing myself to do a torso twist every time I stroke. This brings effort off my shoulders to my core, which is good. It's a damn workout though. Even a couple of miles doing that feels like a lot more.
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deepmud

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Re: Paddling slower, Going faster
« Reply #28 on: September 16, 2018, 10:47:36 PM »
That would be a high heart rate for me. I have a genetically low heart rate--I can't get much past 130.
I'm doing my fasted pace (5mph)  at a rate of 102 to 84 - I'm going to assume the 64 is "the watch slipped" . Later, at 25 minutes, the rate climbs up suddenly and steeply - it does this every time. I must be running on stored energies up to then? Side note - my resting heart rate keeps dropping the more I do sup. Used to be in the 60's, now in the 50's. Sleeping it is at 50-52.

Worked on hip thrust :D yesterday - got in a mile at  5mph. I'll put up a couple more screenshots. "Diesel Stroke" seems to be my thing, at least for now, I got in a mile at 5.0/4.9 even with a headwind. I know it's not that much - but it picked up .7mph average, even tho' I was hitting well in excess of 5mph for short bursts before, the average was never very high. None today - which means I'm done for 2018. Surgery is Tuesday, I don't see a workout Monday. Maybe.

"breaking the wrist"  - pointing hand up? I'm not seeing. Lots and lots of power in my arm so down pressure not a problem. I do have some issues with the left shoulder, but after 2 years of working to get full extension, my right-side stroke (which was limited by left shoulder) is about the same are the left side. Feels strong, and the Ke Nalu shaft seems to flex enough to keep my joints happy.

Question - if setting the blade gets the traction of the larger blade - what does the smaller blade do that that larger does not? Just the grams of weight saved?

Ichabod - YES - torso twist can be tiring - but I feel like using those larger muscles has to be smart money. "Firing my hips" like Bill was saying seems to spread the stress out - less low down heat, more spread up into my lats.  Feels like I'm trying to do 15 things in perfect order and being lucky to get 8 of them right at any given time.

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Re: Paddling slower, Going faster
« Reply #29 on: September 17, 2018, 12:34:23 AM »
Re: smaller blade advantages - smaller blades reduce swing weight and windage, and also make it easier to get the shaft vertical. However a principal advantage is that while lots of slippage of the blade is highly undesirable, none at all is very tough on the body. Most people find a happy compromise that reduces “catch shock” when you first sink the blade and start pulling, but not so much that the blade slips greatly an cavitation. Any loss of initial momentary acceleration is more than made up for by a slightly faster stroke rate and a lot less fatigue. It’s like the gears on a bike - running in top gear the whole time might be fast for a short while but the strain on your body would be immense, especially when conditions get difficult.

If a person’s technique is poor, they can be faster and more comfortable with a big blade, because it doesn’t slip as much for them. But as your technique improves you find that ever smaller blades don’t slip.

 


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