Author Topic: Do prone foil surfers go faster than their SUP brothers?  (Read 2436 times)

Beasho

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 2007
    • View Profile
Re: Do prone foil surfers go faster than their SUP brothers?
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2018, 06:15:52 AM »
The reason this makes no sense to you is that in all your "scientific" analysis you fail to recognize the biggest factor of all, and that is the skill of the person surfing the craft.  You assume the surfer is a dead weight just sitting on top of the board, which is definitely not true.

Data Deniers the modern version of Luddites waving their hands and raising their voice when they see something that threatens them. 

Ignorant AND Opinionated must be a beautiful way to go through life.    8)

On the topic of SPEED there is one factor that override everything and that is the size of the wave.  I have an advantage both geographically and with data because Mavericks is my home break and I am the only person (other than Haley Fiske) that has attempted to paddle in under my own power at Mavericks on a foil.  To do this transcends the skill and enters the realm of big wave surfing something few people are willing to consider.

There was a speed competition in March sponsored by Ocean Addicts in Australia.  I was originally at the top of the list but the Australians would have none of that and started posting results.  It was springtime here and the waves were not regularly pumping.  Here were the results.  Fastest wave Prone.   :o  I sat in 4th place.

If you look at the data I already posted (small sample) there was a wave that maxed out at 28.5 mph.  This equates to 46 km/hr or 5% faster than anyone on the list. (This was prior to the competition so I did NOT submit it).

Fastest FOIL on Record - 8' 2" L41 SUP converted to Foil Board flying a Kai Foil (paddle in) - aka HEAVY clunky board & small foil.  Note that my fastest wave on the IWA (Posted above) was 25 mph or 40 km/hr putting me in 3rd place with a big wing.  And I haven't even mined all my data yet.  But if you have better data, as I said, please share.

Link here:
https://www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Stand-Up-Paddle/Foiling/Hydrofoil-Surfing-Speed-Competition
« Last Edit: September 13, 2018, 06:51:06 AM by Beasho »

Evan Lloyd

  • Sunset Status
  • ****
  • Posts: 362
    • View Profile
Re: Do prone foil surfers go faster than their SUP brothers?
« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2018, 09:13:24 AM »
When you say Mavericks are you talking about taking off at the peak or at Mushroom rock?  Iíve been wondering if it is possible to foil the peak with a SUP. Iíve caught a few waves there many years ago and the speeds on an 11í sup were tremendous. I imagine a foil would be crazy fast making the drop. You Mavs guys have my full respect.

Beasho

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 2007
    • View Profile
Re: Do prone foil surfers go faster than their SUP brothers?
« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2018, 12:34:08 PM »
When you say Mavericks are you talking about taking off at the peak or at Mushroom rock? 

Periphery of Mavericks.  No one is close to foiling the peak.  Much less during a crowded session.  My foil rides have been taking off 200 to 250 yards outside of Mushroom Rock.  Wave faces 10 to 14 ft.  The key is to catch it on the edge staying FAR away from the drop.

The Bowl Proper would be ~ 450 yards outside of Mushroom. 

Speeds on a SUP, without a foil, at Mavericks are typically 28 to 36 mph. 
« Last Edit: September 13, 2018, 12:38:23 PM by Beasho »

SURFFOILS

  • Rincon Status
  • ***
  • Posts: 190
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Do prone foil surfers go faster than their SUP brothers?
« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2018, 07:54:42 PM »
Beasho, this Trace product does GPS Ďspeed over landí rather than speed through water right ?
« Last Edit: September 13, 2018, 07:57:16 PM by SURFFOILS »

surfcowboy

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 3373
    • View Profile
Re: Do prone foil surfers go faster than their SUP brothers?
« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2018, 08:00:49 PM »
Yes, surffoils, itís gps. Not a speedometer.

SURFFOILS

  • Rincon Status
  • ***
  • Posts: 190
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Do prone foil surfers go faster than their SUP brothers?
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2018, 10:52:02 PM »
So itís quite likely that itís not recording the correct highest speed due to the vertical component of riding larger waves.
 Bottom line, On larger waves youíre more likely to be going faster than the GPS asesses.

Bean

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 3438
    • View Profile
Re: Do prone foil surfers go faster than their SUP brothers?
« Reply #21 on: September 14, 2018, 07:18:44 AM »
Ineresting observation SF.  But since Beasho's real-world analysis is more anecdotal than scientific, this is probably a difference without a distinction. 

red_tx

  • Malibu Status
  • **
  • Posts: 86
    • View Profile
Re: Do prone foil surfers go faster than their SUP brothers?
« Reply #22 on: September 14, 2018, 07:46:33 AM »
The reason this makes no sense to you is that in all your "scientific" analysis you fail to recognize the biggest factor of all, and that is the skill of the person surfing the craft.  You assume the surfer is a dead weight just sitting on top of the board, which is definitely not true.

Data Deniers the modern version of Luddites waving their hands and raising their voice when they see something that threatens them. 

Ignorant AND Opinionated must be a beautiful way to go through life.    8)

On the topic of SPEED there is one factor that override everything and that is the size of the wave.  I have an advantage both geographically and with data because Mavericks is my home break and I am the only person (other than Haley Fiske) that has attempted to paddle in under my own power at Mavericks on a foil.  To do this transcends the skill and enters the realm of big wave surfing something few people are willing to consider.

There was a speed competition in March sponsored by Ocean Addicts in Australia.  I was originally at the top of the list but the Australians would have none of that and started posting results.  It was springtime here and the waves were not regularly pumping.  Here were the results.  Fastest wave Prone.   :o  I sat in 4th place.

If you look at the data I already posted (small sample) there was a wave that maxed out at 28.5 mph.  This equates to 46 km/hr or 5% faster than anyone on the list. (This was prior to the competition so I did NOT submit it).

Fastest FOIL on Record - 8' 2" L41 SUP converted to Foil Board flying a Kai Foil (paddle in) - aka HEAVY clunky board & small foil.  Note that my fastest wave on the IWA (Posted above) was 25 mph or 40 km/hr putting me in 3rd place with a big wing.  And I haven't even mined all my data yet.  But if you have better data, as I said, please share.

Link here:
https://www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Stand-Up-Paddle/Foiling/Hydrofoil-Surfing-Speed-Competition

Beash is right here. The data are telling a real story based on actual data. Beasho when I get up and going on my foil I will help you collect data.
Please keep collecting and posting.. Its amazing info.. and unique.
-red
« Last Edit: September 14, 2018, 07:53:09 AM by red_tx »

PonoBill

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 21501
    • View Profile
    • Ponohouse is for sale. Great house but it's time for new adventures
Re: Do prone foil surfers go faster than their SUP brothers?
« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2018, 08:21:10 AM »
Well, you're right SF, sort of, but it doesn't matter because speed measurements are not absolute. Speed through the water can be measured relative to the water, and that means either a dragged prop or some other sensor that can measure that relative motion. Of course, that isn't any more precise or useful than a GPS in a current, or even with the varied and complex water velocities on the face of a wave.

A GPS is actually the most useful way to measure velocity (speed in a specific direction) though the flavor of speed measurement used in most current GPS systems is not as precise as it can be. Doppler speed measurement used to be available in handheld GPS units, but it's only used in speed-specific units today. Doppler measurement can be as accurate as +/- .01kts.

It seems like you're writing mostly of vertical displacement being added to speed. That doesn't happen with a GPS measurement. Height can be measured with a GPS, but vertical displacement isn't added to speed. For that matter, vertical displacement wouldn't be added to speed with a speedometer except as related to the current on the face of a wave, and that current isn't simply up the face, as it would appear to be from videos or experience.

Beasho's data is as good as anyone is likely to get.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2018, 08:22:43 AM by PonoBill »
Ponohouse is for sale: http://www.ponohouse.com
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

SURFFOILS

  • Rincon Status
  • ***
  • Posts: 190
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Do prone foil surfers go faster than their SUP brothers?
« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2018, 01:44:22 PM »
The easiest way to explain is that when you drop on takeoff, thereís a massive vertical acceleration,and the bigger the wave the greater the speed as you drop.
The greater the vertical drop the less likely a GPS will register it, so the 2D speed will say that youíre standing still which is not true.
 I think weíve all experienced waves that barrel furiously but are almost a standing wave because of the movement of water. But a GPS would say that your speed is almost nil.
 I get that the GPS is a general positioning system and probably the most familiar system to use but because thereís such a 3 dimensional aspect to surfing you canít accurately measure speed without measuring the speed through the water.

 I think Beashos results would definately be higher with a flow gauge and GPS.

PonoBill

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 21501
    • View Profile
    • Ponohouse is for sale. Great house but it's time for new adventures
Re: Do prone foil surfers go faster than their SUP brothers?
« Reply #25 on: September 14, 2018, 04:08:41 PM »
Nope. There isn't. The acceleration of a surfer comes from wave energy being imparted to the surfer. Sounds like you think it comes from sliding down the hill. If that were true then surfing would be a very short, very slow ride--like skiing down a ten foot hill. A surfer in an overhead wave drops five feet or less vertically before he turns. Gravity alone gives him a speed of about 5 mph, but he's on the face of a wave moving at ten mph. As long as he is on the face of the wave there is energy being transferred to his board to accelerate him and make up for the drag. I would think foils would put this notion of sliding down a hill to rest even with folks that don't care much for physics since you can watch foilers downwinding for miles, traveling at speeds around fifteen miles an hour, without ever "sliding down the hill".

A barrelling wave, or any ocean wave for that matter, is traveling at a speed related to its period and the depth of the water. A surfer on it is carving a vector across the face, moving faster than the wave. It's not a standing wave. Yes, if you don't keep up your speed the water that appears to be moving up the face will carry you over the falls--but that's because the water is mostly standing still (actually it's moving in epicycles in the direction opposite to the way it looks to the surfer) while the wave energy is moving forward, and surfer is moving both forward and to the side.
The energy to propel him comes from transferring the wave energy, and his speed is the wave speed times the cosine of the angle he attains to the direction of travel of the wave. A GPS will show the speed the surfer is traveling correctly.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2018, 04:49:50 PM by PonoBill »
Ponohouse is for sale: http://www.ponohouse.com
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

SURFFOILS

  • Rincon Status
  • ***
  • Posts: 190
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Do prone foil surfers go faster than their SUP brothers?
« Reply #26 on: September 14, 2018, 11:05:54 PM »
On an OH wave I would drop about about 3 metres vertically but even at 2 metres or 6 feet thats a speed of 22kph or 14 mph. i know thats a freefall number but thats not an unusual feeling talking off on a prone/shortboard.
 At somewhere like Mavericks i would guess theyre dropping 6 metres + but that vertical component is invisible to a GPS.
 Its like saying a pilot in a vertical dive has no speed because theres no lat or long difference,the drop is where the greatest acceleration happens.

Bean

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 3438
    • View Profile
Re: Do prone foil surfers go faster than their SUP brothers?
« Reply #27 on: September 15, 2018, 04:50:22 AM »
Sometimes adding more data points simply clouds the analysis. The question you have to ask yourself is, will the additional data, in any significant way, improve the usefulness of the message?  And if so, is the additional effort worthwhile?

On a personal note, I think Beshoís approach is very useful as is.

SURFFOILS

  • Rincon Status
  • ***
  • Posts: 190
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Do prone foil surfers go faster than their SUP brothers?
« Reply #28 on: September 15, 2018, 05:48:32 AM »
Adding more data points improves analysis, thatís what analysis thrives on.....Data. Doesnít it ?

Oh hang on... I get it...you  guys are trolling me to avoid basic science.
 Well done, I get the joke.  Sorry I didnít get it sooner !!!

 Sure, surfing is done on a flat 2-D plane and vertical dimension is not measureable in the real world. Ha ha .
 You had me believing you were seriously denying the third dimension.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2018, 05:50:55 AM by SURFFOILS »

PonoBill

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 21501
    • View Profile
    • Ponohouse is for sale. Great house but it's time for new adventures
Re: Do prone foil surfers go faster than their SUP brothers?
« Reply #29 on: September 15, 2018, 07:27:05 AM »
Apparently I don't understand what you're trying to communicate. The total speed of a surfer (considering every energy source) is the paddling speed, plus speed attained from gravity in the drop, plus speed imparted by wave energy transfer as long as the surfer is on the slope of the wave, minus drag. Other than movements up and down the face of the wave all that speed is measured by the GPS. I don't get your point.
Ponohouse is for sale: http://www.ponohouse.com
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

 


* Recent Topics

topic Concept Sunova: Big Boy Bombora
[Gear Talk]
supcymru
Today at 10:47:12 AM
topic First snow noreaster
[Sessions]
surfercook
Today at 08:47:38 AM
topic On your knees, or on your feet?
[Technique]
Biggreen
Today at 08:45:12 AM
topic Leash to Suit Velcro?
[Gear Talk]
surfcowboy
Today at 08:25:22 AM
topic "Facing Nature Left Of Frame"
[Sessions]
supthecreek
Today at 08:19:38 AM
topic Installing foot placement pads - a photo epic
[Foil SUP]
Beasho
Today at 07:00:19 AM
topic Ke Nalu Hydrofoil
[Ke Nalu]
AlexFun
Today at 04:02:31 AM
topic HOT Chicks on Stand Up Paddle Boards!
[General Discussion]
TallDude
November 17, 2018, 09:46:08 PM
topic Taking off the foot straps
[Foil SUP]
SanoSlatchSup
November 17, 2018, 05:48:08 PM
topic Dry Land Training
[Foil SUP]
PonoBill
November 17, 2018, 04:42:11 PM
topic Allison fin set up
[Gear Talk]
burchas
November 17, 2018, 04:08:15 PM
topic Foil Videos
[Foil SUP]
PonoBill
November 17, 2018, 01:56:06 PM
topic DoHo Jerk
[Sessions]
Badger
November 17, 2018, 12:40:11 PM
topic Surfers stance question
[Technique]
anonsurfer
November 17, 2018, 12:18:54 PM
topic Infinity new deal
[Gear Talk]
SouthCounty
November 17, 2018, 09:12:52 AM