Do prone foil surfers go faster than their SUP brothers?

[Evan Lloyd]

Is it me or do the prone guys seem to move a lot faster that the guys on SUP?  Logically it doesn’t make sense because both are flying the same foils, but when I watch the videos or see the guys out on the water, the prone foil surfers seem to be going way faster. Am I crazy?

[Bean]

Evan, just in eyeballing the specs for different foils, it seems that the larger foils give up a couple of knots at the top end in exchange for earlier, low speed lift. 

At the bottom of this article is a speed chart that may be of interest.

http://www.mackiteboarding.com/Foilboarding-Styles-Foil-Fridays-Ep-01/

[PonoBill]

Not really, but it's not the boards, it's the foils. Most of the prone guys are on smaller, higher aspect foils. They take off on more critical waves, just as they do shortboarding, so the foil doesn't need to be big to hold their weight. My gofoil 280 feels like it hit the wall somewhere around 11mph. I've gone over 15mph on the IWA. Can't get my fat ass off the water with a Kai, but the folks that use them really fly. The Kai is still a low aspect wing, high aspect wings can create the same lift with less drag because they have less wingtip area to induce tip vortex. But high aspect wings are less maneuverable.

[Beasho]

I have started to process the 5 million data points I have from roughly 400 sessions on my TRACE.

Here is how the foil data is playing out.  This represents the Speed data from 22 sessions measured 5 times a second JUST FOR THE WAVES e.g. no dead time. 

The graphics are starting to tell the story on the speed profile of each foil.  Here is how the KAI, IWA and Maliko 200 are playing out.

The MACKite data is within my bands of +/- 1 Standard Deviation of the Average buy my ranges are MUCH broader, as in the Foils can go faster than the MACKite guys are suggesting.  But I suspect they are measuring speeds behind a boat.  All my data is 100% measured from the Surf. 

I am pretty sure NO ONE ELSE ON PLANET EARTH HAS THE DATA I AM SHOWING HERE. 

This represents just 22 of the 150 sessions I have recorded on the TRACE.

[Beasho]

I am still processing this data but here is an interesting overlay.

All 3 Foils flown at 1 Surf Spot.  Combined 17 sessions, 175 Waves, 24,700 data records measured in 1/5 per second increments.

Grouping by Speed Band this shows the percentage of time the foil is flying in that speed band.  Granted each foil was flown in DIFFERENT sized conditions.  But the speed banding shows how 'comfortably' the foils are flying in certain ranges.

The second graphic shows an isolation of a single foil set of waves.  In this case JUST selecting the KAI foiled waves which would in this case were the bigger outside sets. 

The KAI can fly fast (I weigh 185 lbs) but I have found that the IWA can fly nearly JUST AS FAST.  And it will fly further in smaller waves. 

[DailyBread Surf Photo]

Is it me or do the prone guys seem to move a lot faster that the guys on SUP?  Logically it doesn’t make sense because both are flying the same foils, but when I watch the videos or see the guys out on the water, the prone foil surfers seem to be going way faster. Am I crazy?

No you're not crazy, "prone" guys go faster, and farther. 

I have first hand experience passing SUP foilers on the same wave.  Their big boards slow them down, and their straps also slow them down.  Holding the paddle slows them down too.   

[SUPeter]

So, my SUP goes slower than your prone boards.  Thank God!  The speeds I am experiencing on larger waves are both scaring the shit and knocking the wind, out of me.  It feels like I'm jumping out of a speed boat going 25mph.  I trust I will become accustomed to this speed but am still preferring those waist to chest days on my big wing (IWA size).

[Beasho]

I have first hand experience passing SUP foilers on the same wave.  Their big boards slow them down, and their straps also slow them down.  Holding the paddle slows them down too.   

This makes NO sense.  However I have several experiences lately that made no sense but were too close to true to argue.

It has to come down to weight and foil because the water doesn't otherwise care what is in the air. 

I wish someone else was collecting data to compare. 

[PonoBill]

Actually, I thought about this some after Daily Bread's reply, and I suspect he's right about the board. And yes, Beasho, it's weight, but it's where the weight is that matters. Weight up at the nose of a SUP has to be compensated for with a little extra AOA and that means drag. I looked at a few pictures of foilers flying lunch trays, like Kai in a recent video where he's on a sub-3 foot board and some good sup foilers. In all cases, the SUPs are trimmed more nose-up than the lunch trays. If it were one or two examples I'd admit it could be shimming or mounting variation, but both the mental picture of weight on the end of a long stick and the actual pictures lead me to believe that a tiny board is a speed advantage because the foil can be trimmed for minimum drag.

And yes, I agree with SUPeter. The relatively ponderous pace of a 280 is comforting. An Iwa feels much more on the edge of control and falling off it is usually accompanied by several bounces and a thorough thrashing. Of course, falling off a 280 requires that you avoid the wing, which is as wide or wider than the board.

[J-Bird]

I have first hand experience passing SUP foilers on the same wave.  Their big boards slow them down, and their straps also slow them down.  Holding the paddle slows them down too.   

This makes NO sense.  However I have several experiences lately that made no sense but were too close to true to argue.

It has to come down to weight and foil because the water doesn't otherwise care what is in the air. 

I wish someone else was collecting data to compare.

The reason this makes no sense to you is that in all your "scientific" analysis you fail to recognize the biggest factor of all, and that is the skill of the person surfing the craft.  You assume the surfer is a dead weight just sitting on top of the board, which is definitely not true.

[DailyBread Surf Photo]

Funny nobody addresses the foot straps and paddle issue. 

So take 2 sprinters, both equally fast.  Give one a cake to run with, holding with both hands and also tie his shoe laces together so he can only step forward a limited amount.  The other guy isn't holding anything nor are his shoes tied together...

Guess who was faster?

Both holding the paddle and foot straps restrict movement. 





And back to the board size topic.... I've ridden both prone and SUP foil boards in sizes ranging from 8'4" down to 4'10" and can speak from experience, whatever is forward of the mast impacts speed, lift, pitch, roll....end of story.  If you are foiling on a SUP, you WILL ALWAYS have more volume than a prone board.  This is why you will always be slower.

But this isn't drag racing, there's no trophy for being faster.  It's all about having fun in the ocean.  So lets keep that in perspective.

[808sup]

Funny nobody addresses the foot straps and paddle issue. 

So take 2 sprinters, both equally fast.  Give one a cake to run with, holding with both hands and also tie his shoe laces together so he can only step forward a limited amount.  The other guy isn't holding anything nor are his shoes tied together...

Guess who was faster?
What kind of cake is he carrying? Pound cake😉
But seriously, it should be all about having fun. Some think the longest ride is the shiz, some think the most consecutive waves in a row.
I’ve seen Nate here in this video many times and noticed that his technique is soooo smooth. He gets what he needs from each wave and then seamlessly heads back and repeats. If you watch him in videos his pumping is so subtle, Changing the AOA  in small increments. I’ve seen him going back out to catch another ride much faster than he rides in.

Both holding the paddle and foot straps restrict movement. 
YES!




And back to the board size topic.... I've ridden both prone and SUP foil boards in sizes ranging from 8'4" down to 4'10" and can speak from experience, whatever is forward of the mast impacts speed, lift, pitch, roll....end of story.  If you are foiling on a SUP, you WILL ALWAYS have more volume than a prone board.  This is why you will always be slower.

But this isn't drag racing, there's no trophy for being faster.  It's all about having fun in the ocean.  So lets keep that in perspective.

This video is kinda rough but  shows the advantages of being smooth...
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=u127d-Ji25Q

[DailyBread Surf Photo]

Funny nobody addresses the foot straps and paddle issue. 

So take 2 sprinters, both equally fast.  Give one a cake to run with, holding with both hands and also tie his shoe laces together so he can only step forward a limited amount.  The other guy isn't holding anything nor are his shoes tied together...

Guess who was faster?
What kind of cake is he carrying? Pound cake😉
But seriously, it should be all about having fun. Some think the longest ride is the shiz, some think the most consecutive waves in a row.
I’ve seen Nate here in this video many times and noticed that his technique is soooo smooth. He gets what he needs from each wave and then seamlessly heads back and repeats. If you watch him in videos his pumping is so subtle, Changing the AOA  in small increments. I’ve seen him going back out to catch another ride much faster than he rides in.

Both holding the paddle and foot straps restrict movement. 
YES!




And back to the board size topic.... I've ridden both prone and SUP foil boards in sizes ranging from 8'4" down to 4'10" and can speak from experience, whatever is forward of the mast impacts speed, lift, pitch, roll....end of story.  If you are foiling on a SUP, you WILL ALWAYS have more volume than a prone board.  This is why you will always be slower.

But this isn't drag racing, there's no trophy for being faster.  It's all about having fun in the ocean.  So lets keep that in perspective.

This video is kinda rough but  shows the advantages of being smooth...
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=u127d-Ji25Q

The kid is kinda boring but the dude in the red shirt has really good style.

[PonoBill]

I suspect GP is talking about my leaping chicken style when he says some people's arm movements are clumsy. I have to hold my paddle in one hand to pump at all. And yeah, the guy in the red shirt has style all over that skinny damned kid--the little bugger looks like he's going to fall asleep. Let's see some effort there, Nathan. 

[surfcowboy]

The trim has got to be it. As I look at pics of both it’s right. Also the movement makes sense. Easier to perfectly trim whereas yeah, the paddle is just sitting there. (Unlike regular SUS, weirdly, where it’s a critical tool.)

Forget his riding, how good looking is the guy in red? Is he some kind of model?