Author Topic: Unlimited SUP as alternative to surfski  (Read 3806 times)

FloridaWindSUP

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Unlimited SUP as alternative to surfski
« on: July 15, 2018, 06:35:37 AM »
I'm about 4 months into experimenting with a 21'x16.9" 2009 Epic v12 surfski kayak that sort of fell into my lap as a cheap deal I couldn't refuse. I'm nearly at the point of conceding that I cannot paddle the surfski without seriously damaging my butt. (I'll spare the gory details.) But it's so fast and has such great potential for efficient upwinding and downwinding that I'm kind of sad at going back to the plain old 14' board.

I'd be interested in getting an unlimited SUP that could fill kind of the same roles that the surfski was intended to fill:

1) Faster and more efficient craft than 14' sup for long distance paddles
2) Faster and easier for downwinders than 14' sup
3) Rudder-equipped to deal with side-winds in open water long distance paddling

I imagine that to fill requirement #1 it would have to be narrowish (< 25" wide) with a non-extreme rocker. Not sure how long would be optimal. I'm 75 kg / 178 cm tall. I like the looks of the Mistral Interceptor, though i'm not sure the board actually exists and is available. Would also like to talk to Yuval about Indigo custom board options and maybe try his out some more.

https://www.facebook.com/mistralsup/posts/mistral's-interceptor-17'6-x-24/1936635846355667/ 
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PonoBill

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Re: Unlimited SUP as alternative to surfski
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2018, 07:26:51 AM »
The starboard unlimited is wicked fast, and so are the Hobies. Maybe talldude would part with some of his hoard.
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ukgm

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Re: Unlimited SUP as alternative to surfski
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2018, 07:39:32 AM »
No board can even get close to a ski. Better just accept you need it all.

TallDude

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Re: Unlimited SUP as alternative to surfski
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2018, 11:12:21 AM »
I don't think you can make a useful comparison between the two. Surfski's are fast and have a substantial learning curve. Especially in rough open water. Aside from the fact that they are both human powered water craft, they are totally different.
It's been and interesting past couple of weeks since acquiring 3 more custom Hobie unlimiteds. They are all very different and shine in one condition or another. I have my custom knife point to pin tail, very flat, very low volume, with rounded rails 18' x 25" flat water speed machine. Sucks in open choppy water. I have a 18 x 27 very flat pin to pin, with a deep dug out foot well, very low rocker, fiber glass trampoline, that glides surprisingly well in flat water and is very stable in the open ocean, but needs more rocker and a more forgiving nose in the open ocean.
One of the Hobie's I just got, I used to race 8 years ago. Since then, Mark Johnson reshaped the nose and lowered the foot well some. It's 18 x 25 with a surf bottom and a small square tail. Double concave throughout with hard rails and a good amount of rocker. It used to be pretty slow for an unlimited, but I like it much better now with the reshape and it's a great open ocean board. It surf really good for an 18', and will probably become my daily paddler. I'm in the process of painting it white with some blue details. The other 2 Hobies I got are battle cruisers at 18'-9" x 26" and a shit load of volume. One had a very rounded bottom and a strange wide to pin tail transition. It rolls side to side, but has great secondary stability. It probably guides the closest to my flat water racer, but way more stability. Being so similar to another board I already have, I gave it to my brother. The second Battle cruiser is going to be my project board. I'm going to cut and reshape it. I'm going to cut the foot well way down, and reshape the nose. Possibly install a rudder. It has the bones to become a clog.
Most the guys I know who are serious into unlimited's have a quiver of them:) They are so different from a 14' in so many ways. The most apparent is way.... more glide. No 14' glides like an unlimited. 
« Last Edit: July 15, 2018, 11:20:18 AM by TallDude »
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FloridaWindSUP

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Re: Unlimited SUP as alternative to surfski
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2018, 11:33:56 AM »
Pono- Which starboard unlimited? Wicked fast in flatwater and downwind, or wicked fast in one but terrible in the other? If I can race at around hull speed on a 14' (9.3 kph), would I expect to do the same on a 17'6" unlimited (10.4 kph), or not quite because of the increased weight and surface friction drag?

Ukgm- Yeah, I know. Surfkis are a much greater percent faster than 14' sups than unlimited sups are. Probably like 30% faster vs. just 5-10% faster. I'm still hoping to work out some kind of exotic seat padding system or different model of surfski to make it work. But if that fails, gruesomely damaging the flesh of a sensitive area of my body every time I paddle is not worth it. :P

TallDude- Interesting info on the custom Hobie ULs. The 18x25 with a bit more rocker sounds like a winner for you.
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burchas

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Re: Unlimited SUP as alternative to surfski
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2018, 01:48:25 PM »
I would gladly give you to try out the board some more if I was still around. I have some
good months and hundreds of miles on it in every possible condition.

All in all I think my shape really works well for its purpose as an all around unlimited and with
few tweaks it might be really great, if I can maintain a speed around 6mph on it, I'm sure
a beast like your self would leave scorch marks on the water ;D

one of the key elements of the design is its low volume, I was going to add a rudder but discovered
it doesn't really need it, even in heavy side wind/side swell like your gulf conditions (with ventral assist).

Delfos has my shape on file just in case you're considering that route. I also have it and some
new versions. might be able to offer you some feedback as to what needs to be tweaked.

As for the Mistral, LeeBee from the forum might be able to help

You're welcome to reach out anytime.
in progress...

Luc Benac

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Re: Unlimited SUP as alternative to surfski
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2018, 03:15:42 PM »
Delfos has my shape on file just in case you're considering that route. I also have it and some
new versions. might be able to offer you some feedback as to what needs to be tweaked.

Now that is something I should put in my Do Not delete. In case I get into some money and I can take the risk of shipping 16' from the Eastern USA to West Coast Canada.
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Eagle

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Re: Unlimited SUP as alternative to surfski
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2018, 11:00:17 PM »
From a speed perspective the much more stable V10 is not much slower than the narrower and tippier V14 or V12.  Most do not jump into a V12 as a beginner and expect to stay dry or learn proper technique.  ;)
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Eagle

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Re: Unlimited SUP as alternative to surfski
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2018, 11:10:32 PM »
Here is a indicator of the speed of a V10 that can be compared to your speed on a SUP.  Was told by one of the top paddlers selling surfskis and teaching -> that you should buy a surfski that you are comfortable balancing on.  Getting one that is too tippy and advanced was not recommended at all as your skill set needs to develop over time in the proper progression.
Fast is FUN!   8)
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ukgm

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Re: Unlimited SUP as alternative to surfski
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2018, 12:52:34 AM »
Ukgm- Yeah, I know. Surfkis are a much greater percent faster than 14' sups than unlimited sups are. Probably like 30% faster vs. just 5-10% faster.

I've got an Epic V8 Pro and even that is 10% faster than the best SUP I have. I may migrate to a V10 next year but I think it'll be too tippy in the rough stuff for someone that would only use it once or twice a week.

The V14 is only suggested by Greg Barton as an elite ski and even then, really for the flat waters or chop. The V12 is the more common alternative but that's an extremely elite level ski too and not something you should even remotely consider unless you've been paddling K1's and have insane levels of balance under 100% power. The V10 is the sensible workhorse that is fast enough for most advanced paddlers.

The best data available to know the timed differences between them is Epics simulated data here:

http://www.surfskinews.com/news-2016-decjan-2017/2017/1/30/updated-epic-surfski-speed-comparison-with-greg-barton
« Last Edit: July 16, 2018, 12:56:49 AM by ukgm »

Eagle

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Re: Unlimited SUP as alternative to surfski
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2018, 08:55:37 AM »
V8 - 21.25"
V8 Pro - 20.0"
V10 Sport - 18.9"
V10 - 17.7"
V10L - 17.3"
V11 / V12 / V14 - 16.9"

Could be that the 17" is one step too tippy for you.  For me the V10 felt about right -> whereas the V10L a tad too tippy.  My preference by a long shot is SUP.  Friends have the V8 V10 V12.

My wife really liked the V10 Sport as that was stable and quick -> yet narrow enough across the cockpit to allow easy paddling for her.  Past 19" the width just felt too wide and cumbersome.

The V10 Sport is a really good width for AW and DW at around 19".   ;)
Fast is FUN!   8)
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Eagle

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Re: Unlimited SUP as alternative to surfski
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2018, 10:04:59 AM »
What was weird was how bloody efficient the V10 is thru the water.  Even with little leg drive that boat speeds along like a bat out of hell.  Add full drive and torque to the blade -> and that boat literally goes too fast!  Could barely keep up with the necessary cadence!  Catches any micro bump.

Like anything is really nice trying a bunch of skis to see how they feel firsthand.  Luckily we have a lot of demo days to test new offerings and different models from Epic and Think.  Daryl from Think lives here -> and Bob at DC really has a passion talking anything surfski.  Think has some really nice boats as well.

Is quite a popular pastime here -> but since getting my AS23 a couple years ago still have no need to add one or more surfskis to our water quiver.  But if there were no real fun SUP options like DW or other challenges -> then would def get surfskis for both of us.
Fast is FUN!   8)
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ukgm

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Re: Unlimited SUP as alternative to surfski
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2018, 10:08:44 AM »
What was weird was how bloody efficient the V10 is thru the water.  Even with little leg drive that boat speeds along like a bat out of hell.  Add full drive and torque to the blade -> and that boat literally goes too fast!  Could barely keep up with the necessary cadence!  Catches any micro bump.

Like anything is really nice trying a bunch of skis to see how they feel firsthand.  Luckily we have a lot of demo days to test new offerings and different models from Epic and Think.  Daryl from Think lives here -> and Bob at DC really has a passion talking anything surfski.  Think has some really nice boats as well.

Is quite a popular pastime here -> but since getting my AS23 a couple years ago still have no need to add one or more surfskis to our water quiver.  But if there were no real fun SUP options like DW or other challenges -> then would def get surfskis for both of us.

I know your balance is great but how did you personally find the V10 ? Do you have to paddle it frequently to keep the balance skills up for it ?

Eagle

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Re: Unlimited SUP as alternative to surfski
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2018, 10:27:43 AM »
V10 would be the right option for me for use AW and flat.  But for DW the V10 Sport would be the right choice with that extra stability.  For balance -> do nothing special as the V10 is stable enough from the get go.  But do not try the V10L or V12 unless you want to get wet and do a bunch of re-mounts.  This coming from a surfski noob.

If very comfortable on your V8 Pro -> you might be able to skip the V10 Sport and move to the V10.  But would def try firsthand.  The narrow catch is what makes the V10 so comfortable to paddle for me.  Personally would get the full carbon black gel lightweight option.  Buddy has that and the V12 black.  Basically is a EPIC freak as he goes out in crazy huge bumps with no major concerns.
Fast is FUN!   8)
Dominator - Touring Pintail - Bullet V2 - M14 - AS23

 


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