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Author Topic: Why Laird Hamilton is still making waves...  (Read 10582 times)

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Re: Why Laird Hamilton is still making waves...
« Reply #45 on: June 14, 2018, 11:52:13 AM »
Show me the physiological evidence that you can “build proprioception”. By the logic you are using, tickling the bottom of your feet with a feather should help your balance. If anything, bring barefoot might make you less sensitive to touch because you’ll be thickening the skin on the soles of your feet.

I doubt that a sense of touch is something that can be taught.

Being barefoot just feels nicer, that’s all, and it makes you less wobbly because you are getting more proprioceptive feedback, and you have a tighter connection with your board. But put the boots back on and your balance won’t be any better than it was in boots before you went barefoot. Whereas if you are right, it would be. Placebo effects are real, and are everywhere.

stoneaxe

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Re: Why Laird Hamilton is still making waves...
« Reply #46 on: June 14, 2018, 02:56:49 PM »
Physiological evidence like it being a core concept of physical and vestibular therapy.....??? Building proprioception is also at the core of every high level athlete, dancer, you name the physical job. Without the ability to improve it Baryshnikov would not exist.
https://physioworks.com.au/treatments-1/proprioception-balance-exercises

From 2014...a study on studies if you will concerning training proprioception for improving motor function...the summary

In summary, our aim was to review the available literature in order to provide clarity to the notion of training the proprioceptive system. There is converging evidence that proprioceptive training can yield meaningful improvements in somatosensory and sensorimotor function. However, there is a clear need for further work. With respect to improving motor function, an amalgamated approach may be most advantageous. Those forms of training incorporating both passive and active movements (i.e., proprioceptive and sensorimotor information) with and without visual feedback appear to be most beneficial. There is also initial evidence suggesting that proprioceptive training induces cortical reorganization, providing evidence for the notion that proprioceptive training is a viable method for improving motor function.

Full text
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4309156/
« Last Edit: June 14, 2018, 03:03:07 PM by stoneaxe »
Bob

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Re: Why Laird Hamilton is still making waves...
« Reply #47 on: June 14, 2018, 03:19:01 PM »
Interesting review, thanks. But the term proprioception, as that article puts it, “refers to the conscious awareness of body and limbs and has several distinct properties: passive motion sense, active motion sense, limb position sense, and the sense of heaviness (Goldscheider, 1898)”.

There may be some evidence that exercise aimed at training these things (e.g. limb position sense) may alter athletic or everyday performance. But the point I was making was what is the evidence that not wearing boots (on a SUP) trains any of these things? As I asked before - don’t you guys have bare feet at home? So why if you have bare feet at home for hours and hours a day will being on a SUP with bare feet (rather than wearing boots) suddenly have some dramatic effect that hours of walking/standing around at home won’t have? What is the evidence that a sense of touch, which is presumably what you are talking about when you talk about what bare feet gives you (since standing on a board with bare feet will require substantially the same other physiological systems as standing on the board in boots) can either be trained, or that it leads to changes in proprioception? As I said before, I doubt this evidence exists.

addapost

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Re: Why Laird Hamilton is still making waves...
« Reply #48 on: June 14, 2018, 04:54:58 PM »
There are at least three very different systems involved in what we call "balance". They are integrated to produce the phenomena we call "balance" but they are very different things. One can probably not be changed but the other two most certainly can.
1. First is the sensory input system. The brain needs information about what is happening to the body.
2. Next is the brain processing that input and deciding what to do about it. And finally...
3. The skeletal-muscular system actually carrying out whatever action the brain decided on.

When it comes to the first step- sensory input- "proprioceptors" are just one of at least three different input systems along with vision and inner ear. Proprioceptors are different than "proprioception" as defined in the article. Proprioceptors are nerve endings in tendons and muscles that send stress information to the brain. They are either stimulated (and send a signal) or they are not. I am with the camp here that you cannot train to improve the function of the sensory input system. Therefore, wearing boots to mask nerve endings in the feet (different from the proprioceptors but similar result- signal information sent to the brain) is not going to improve their function when the boots are removed. In fact, I would argue that any time spent in boots (inaccurate input) is valuable time lost to training the brain to react to accurate sensory input. (Along with proprioceptors you also receive information about position and movement from vision and the inner ear vestibular organs.) Arguing that masking sensory input will help improve that system is the same as saying vision can be improved by wearing a mask or hearing can be improved by wearing ear plugs. It doesn't work that way. Luckily though you can train to improve the two other parts of the balance system.

What "balance training" refers to are the other two pieces of the "balance" trifecta. First is the brain's processing of all the sensory input it receives. The quicker it makes sense of the input the quicker it can enact a reaction plan. That's where repetitive practice comes in, the more often you receive specific sensory input the quicker the brain recognizes what it means and the quicker it can do something effective about it. As an example, think of when you first started SUSing. I remember when I first started, incoming swell hitting my tail from behind would always throw me backwards off the board. It was a completely new feeling and I didn't know what to do about it. After about 20 or 30 times of falling over backwards my brain had figured out what that feeling was and knew what to do about it. It's not the speed that the signal gets to your brain, that is fixed by biochemistry, it's how long does my brain take to recognize and understand what those signals mean.

Finally, what are you going to do about it? After your brain has recognized what is happening to the body and has decided on a plan to change the future, it is up to your muscles to actually pull it off. Are they strong enough to offset the momentum of your falling body? That's why basic strength training is so important to balance; it really is all you have to change the future position of your body.

Bunch of old shit

stoneaxe

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Re: Why Laird Hamilton is still making waves...
« Reply #49 on: June 14, 2018, 08:00:02 PM »
It's not a question of improving proprioceptors, I don't think you can likely do that either, but proprioception. Addapost has it.  Proprioception simply put is the sense of where your body/body parts are in space and getting all the pieces of the balance system working in harmony is key to it being good. Proprioception isn't just about the proprioceptors, it can be thrown off by vision/lack off or conflicting signals, I understand that all too well. I feel like I'm floating 3' from where I am 1/2 the time.

The point I'm trying to make is that going barefoot helps in the calibration of the parts. You improve proprioception by combining the use of them all at the same time, not by deadening one or the other. Deadening one is what screwed me up....using them all at once and recalibrating is what helps. I don't need more evidence than that. I have a theory why SUP is such an effective balance therapy and it is simply because we are using it all in difficult conditions. Barefoot and adjusting our bodies to trim constantly while having a broad perfectly flat horizon as reference is what makes it work so well where other therapies fail or are less effective.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2018, 08:01:49 PM by stoneaxe »
Bob

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ukgm

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Re: Why Laird Hamilton is still making waves...
« Reply #50 on: June 15, 2018, 12:25:33 AM »
Show me the physiological evidence that you can “build proprioception”.

There is a big difference between building proprioception and restoring it. I'm wondering if I'm more centred on the latter. Remember, we weren't designed to wear shoes to start with. Getting muscles to fire properly isn't snake oil. Many of us who run or cycle may well have had to be treated in the past for under-used or misfiring glutes in the past. Same thing as far as I'm concerned.

Its the wrong argument to say about putting boots back on and expecting improvements - it wouldn't as they do not allow the foot to function. This all said, all I've got is my N=1 anecdote that after wearing vibrams extensively, I've found using my board easier..... and that's when wearing water vibrams before and after.

PonoBill

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Re: Why Laird Hamilton is still making waves...
« Reply #51 on: June 15, 2018, 06:31:17 AM »
Show me the physiological evidence that you can “build proprioception”. By the logic you are using, tickling the bottom of your feet with a feather should help your balance. If anything, bring barefoot might make you less sensitive to touch because you’ll be thickening the skin on the soles of your feet.

I doubt that a sense of touch is something that can be taught.

Being barefoot just feels nicer, that’s all, and it makes you less wobbly because you are getting more proprioceptive feedback, and you have a tighter connection with your board. But put the boots back on and your balance won’t be any better than it was in boots before you went barefoot. Whereas if you are right, it would be. Placebo effects are real, and are everywhere.

I think you guys are all arguing on the same side with minor differences in emphasis.

First of all, yeah, Laird's message is nutball, and I agree that it's why his brand is declining. Nutballs will agree with him, and there's no shortage of those, but it's not mainstream, though apparently, it's enough to get you elected president.

Then again, I don't get A10's blanket statement that a sense of touch can't be trained. The difference between mediocre and good at doing any complex task is training a sense and the related response and mental processing to perform better than the norm. Touch is certainly no different. There's endless physiological evidence for that. All of the senses we use are modeled in our brains, which are capable of building better models and revising them. I've measured the skew of my pupils after my double vision episode last year--it's improved, and the eye is tracking better, but it's still not perfect. My brain has revised the way the model gets processed. People adapt to ship motion, which means all their balance models and inputs get reworked. Step back on a stationary dock and the world swirls for a moment.

There's no such thing as an isolated sense--sight, touch, balance, hearing, taste--all just sensors feeding your brain, and not only is the data from your nerves pointless without modeling, the quality of the data is much lower than the quality of the model. High resolution stereoscopic vision? Take a look at the bit rate--can't happen. It's a model. Your actual field of high resolution vision is only a few inches across at reading distance. Hold up something with big type and see where you can read it. It's why we have to move our eyes to read--low rez. But our perception, based on the model, is of edge to edge full resolution, color and depth perception--even though we can't recognize a large type letter an inch out of our center of high resolution.

Models can be adapted and changed easily in your brain. There's nothing different in balance, touch, or the result of a bunch of data feeding a proprioception model. It's a model and it can be tuned. Even sensor deficits can be overcome in the model. You catch a glimpse of someone in your peripheral vision, and without knowing exactly why, or even being sure, you recognize them. Turn your head to check, and yes, you're right. Good model building from sparse data. Not enough to form a 3D model of your friend, but enough to recognize them from sparse cues. And that can be trained to work better. Probably every goofy variation of testing of what can be trained has been tested by now. It is, after all, a limited field, and there are plenty of test subjects available. As far as I can see, everything that is actively modeled can be changed.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 07:01:03 AM by PonoBill »
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Re: Why Laird Hamilton is still making waves...
« Reply #52 on: June 16, 2018, 08:54:15 AM »
“think you guys are all arguing on the same side with minor differences in emphasis“

Yes, I think that’s right. We’ve got ourselves a bit tied up in knots because of different interpretations of particular terms.

So, in plain language, what I was saying is that I cannot see that it is self-evident that “training” a sense of touch in your feet will lead to better balancing on a SUP.

It may be the case that it does, in which case you should spend a lot of time eg. tickling the bottom of your feet with a feather, or maybe doing two-point discrimination exercises on the soles of your feet, or judging the temperature of your bathwater using the soles of your feet etc.

But this is an empirical question, as far as I’m concerned - I don’t know of any evidence that improving the sense of touch on the soles of your feet will lead to better balancing ability on a surface in motion. (This doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist, only that I don’t know about it.)

However, I fully believe that going barefoot would improve pretty much anyone’s *performance* in balancing on a moving surface. But that’s not the same as saying that I could (a) train a sense of touch in the soles of my feet and (b) that will automatically improve my ability to balance on my board, which seems to be the claim that I’m reading here.

Incidentally, the brain can be surprising compartmentalised in its processing of different stimuli. It has to be that way because if there was too much cross-talk we’d be in a right pickle, getting all kinds of signals mixed up. There is certainly some integration of the signals of course, but that’s a long way from saying that signals of one type, source, and modality (e.g. sense of touch on the bottom of your feet) can “reprogram” the neural pathways and representations that are responsible for other kinds of signals in separate neural systems (like joint position sense in eg. the hips, that would help with balancing). That’s something that would have to be tested, I think, rather than taken for granted.

http://www.brainfacts.org/~/media/Brainfacts/Article%20Multimedia/Educator%20Section/Olson%20Handout.ashx

Eagle

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Re: Why Laird Hamilton is still making waves...
« Reply #53 on: June 16, 2018, 09:36:09 AM »
1. First is the sensory input system. The brain needs information about what is happening to the body.
2. Next is the brain processing that input and deciding what to do about it. And finally...
3. The skeletal-muscular system actually carrying out whatever action the brain decided on.

Finally, what are you going to do about it? After your brain has recognized what is happening to the body and has decided on a plan to change the future, it is up to your muscles to actually pull it off. Are they strong enough to offset the momentum of your falling body? That's why basic strength training is so important to balance; it really is all you have to change the future position of your body.

Yep.  Most peeps miss this part of the equation.  Or maybe know about it -> but simply chose not to do much or anything about it.  Def does work in my estimation.  ;)

"In simple terms, your brain sends electrical contract or relax messages to your muscles. Your joint movement response is detected by your sensory nervous system and reported back to your brain for fine tuning and improvement with repetition of the process. 



In other words, perfect practise will eventually mean proprioception perfection."

https://physioworks.com.au/treatments-1/proprioception-balance-exercises
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Re: Why Laird Hamilton is still making waves...
« Reply #54 on: June 16, 2018, 09:56:47 AM »
Yes, but none of this relates to the claim that is the centre of the discussion here, which is whether SUPing with bare feet improves balance ability (ie. rather than just balance performance while you have bare feet), such that you’d then perform better with boots on than before you had the period barefoot.

Eagle

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Re: Why Laird Hamilton is still making waves...
« Reply #55 on: June 16, 2018, 10:10:11 AM »
Yeah that was not my claim or assertion.

But can say that going barefoot or using Vibrams or using thick boots -> gives me different sensations to build my propriocepton receptors.  Very useful as improving balance is a huge reason why we like SUP so much.  Can say that my Vibrams actually do grip my board better than my wet feet do.  But still the feel of barefoot feels so nice.
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Eagle

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Re: Why Laird Hamilton is still making waves...
« Reply #56 on: June 16, 2018, 11:25:23 AM »
Show me the physiological evidence that you can “build proprioception”.
Its the wrong argument to say about putting boots back on and expecting improvements - it wouldn't as they do not allow the foot to function. This all said, all I've got is my N=1 anecdote that after wearing vibrams extensively, I've found using my board easier..... and that's when wearing water vibrams before and after.
This in part is what ukgm stated.  Who made that claim that you talk about?
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Re: Why Laird Hamilton is still making waves...
« Reply #57 on: June 16, 2018, 12:37:34 PM »
"Strength and conditioning is essential post 40 and i can recommend barefoot for improving balance."

Try running barefoot on cool asphalt or any other hard surface to get your feet to feel the ground.  Your foot nerve endings will awaken.  All the while your running technique will adapt and improve.  Did this around 5 years ago and have never looked back.

Since then use Vibrams to detune the ride or zero drop with minimal cushion for running in the mtns.  But do use plenty of cushion for walking.

For SUP like to go barefoot or Vibrams or thick booties depending on water temp.
“I can recommend going barefoot for improving balance”.

I interpreted this as meaning that going barefoot improves balance ability rather than that it is just easier to balance when you aren’t wearing boots.

Others like Stoneaxe then took up this position, as I understand it.

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Re: Why Laird Hamilton is still making waves...
« Reply #58 on: June 16, 2018, 02:29:11 PM »
Yeah anyways was not my quote.  But agree that "Strength and conditioning is essential post 40".

From my perspective any activity that can build proprioception is good.  And that changing my running technique has made running now pain free.  Even have learned to enjoy doing sprint repeats.   :P
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addapost

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Re: Why Laird Hamilton is still making waves...
« Reply #59 on: June 16, 2018, 03:41:42 PM »
The benefit to your feet from going barefoot (or near barefoot) isn't from any improvement to proprioception, it's from rebuilding the structural integrity of your feet.
Bunch of old shit

 


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