SailDrone

[yugi]

Ha! I guessed it right!

So after writing that I Googled "Gobekli Tepe beer".

from:
https://www.beervanablog.com/beervana/2017/4/9/which-came-first-bread-or-beer

From the article:

This is extraordinary because it calls into question the accepted sequence of events: first there was agriculture, then settling down, and then the surplus allowed complex culture to arise. But:

Göbekli Tepe calls that conventional wisdom into question. Klaus Schmidt, a German archaeologist who led excavations at the site, argued before he died in 2014 that it might have worked the other way around: The vast labor force needed to build the enclosures pushed people to develop agriculture as a way of providing predictable food—and perhaps drink—for workers.

The site was not where people came to live, but to worship, feast, and drink.

It’s as though Göbekli Tepe were a cathedral and the others local churches; hunter-gatherers might have traveled long distances to meet, worship and help build new monumental structures, sponsoring feasts to display their wealth. “The feasting aspect is the easiest explanation for attracting a labor force to construct the enclosures,” [German archaeologist Jens] Notroff says.

That neolithic hunter-gatherers might devote their time to this enormous endeavor is fascinating on its own; that they would do so for ritual purposes rather than survival make it more so. The recent discovery that they may already have been making beer adds a further element of amazement, but it actually fits in perfectly with the context of the ritual and feasting activities. And here is where we find the first instance of a reason humans might have been drawn to beer-making before breadmaking. The argument goes like this:

Those feasts — and alcohol-induced friendliness — may have enabled hunter-gatherers to bond with larger groups of people in newly emerging villages, fueling the rise of civilization. At work parties, beer may have motivated people to put a little elbow grease into bigger-scale projects such as building ancient monuments.

"Production and consumption of alcoholic beverages is an important factor in feasts facilitating the cohesion of social groups, and in the case of Göbekli Tepe, in organizing collective work," wrote Antiquity paper co-author Oliver Dietrich in an email. Dietrich is an archaeologist for the German Archaeological Institute.

I find this eminently plausible. It's true that food is a more basic need, but that also argues against it as an organizing principle around which humans would do something as arduous as developing agriculture. Privation and want are anathema to the kind of social cohesion, leisure, and surplus energy needed to conduct giant public works projects. If we look later in the historical record, we see that the most energy was always put in service of these religious, transcendental statements (the Pyramids, cathedrals, etc). There are even other examples of neolithic structures--Stonehenge is a prime case. When humans have surplus, they invest it in more abstract desires than merely living another day.

So beer and empathy did create western civilization. Done.

The next question is obviously: Where is Atlantis, dammit?

Maybe the SailDrones can find it.

[Califoilia]

PPS How 'bout them Saildrones, eh? Yesterday I was talking to a person who uses them! How cool is that?

Ah geez, c'mon yugi...it's not cool to come in, and change the subject of the conversation. If you really want to start up a conversation about "SailDrones", you should start a new thread on the subject, and let people talk about those there in their own separate discussion place. 

[yugi]

^ You're right. Maybe I need a beer.

[stoneaxe]

I can always count on a smile from Yugi's posts.....

[PonoBill]

It's an opinion Alap, formed from reading (as far as I know) everything she wrote. Not something I need to defend or clarify.

The only reason I would respond to you is if our conversation were either interesting or enjoyable. This is neither. You pull a word out of a paragraph and either pretend not to recognize the context or actually don't, which makes you either manipulative or stupid. I suspect the former but I'm sure you'll extract the later as a personal attack. For example, I said "By Ayn Rand's criteria I am a failure--so is anyone who doesn't achieve the objectivist tenets. I frequently act altruistically, so I'm a fool, being manipulated by the weak. Complete failure." From that, you extract that I claim to be an altruist. Obviously, a manipulation and a clumsy one, though if you like I'll assume you're just dumb.

[alap]

fantastic!
I am feeling your altruism seeping out from every word, hahaha,
and lots of Pono too, hahahaha

I have a suggestion - you should change your avatar to deNiro! 

nice talking to you Pono Bill, not that I found it interesting or enjoyable

[Admin]

Ayn Rand is always a great subject.  It is hard not to enjoy reading the books.  Amazing story lines on top of an interesting philosophy and world view.  I read The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged young and still consider them favorites.  Mostly because I see her character types popping up all the time.  But, there are gaping holes in her philosophy and Donald Trump is neither Roark nor Galt.  Rand's selfishness did not rely on gaming the system, not paying bills, constant bankruptcies, driving down the less fortunate, lying, fostering societal hatreds, etc.  It was based on Motive Power, individual drive and creation.  Highest Moral Value stuff.  Trump has some attributes of her selfishness, adds many others that would be intolerable to Rand and lacks the critical ones that made it a cool philosophy.  Rand's selfishness would not work if adopted by everyone but Trump's Selfishness can only support a very few and only works if there are others who play by the rules.

...and SailDrones are cool...

[eastbound]

aspire to kindness empathy altruism collectivism generosity??

that's easy. go here:  https://www.gofundme.com/5teiafs#search/nyoutdoor%40gmail.com

i aspire to all that stuff--mostly fail cuz im an ahole--but i try

[PonoBill]

It's irritating to admit that this conversation (?) made me realize how long ago it was that I read these books (more than 40 years for some) and so I've bought four to reread. At least that means I have something interesting to read. I was starting to run low on ideas--I've been toiling away at some mathematics that might help me understand the current work on quantum gravity, and it's not fun. I'm starting with We the Living, then Anthem, Fountainhead and then Atlas Shrugged. We'll see if that whets my appetite to continue with the non-fiction. The Virtue of Selfishness pissed me off the first time I read it. I don't look to metaphysics for anything, certainly not a personal philosophy.

[eastbound]

i will be curious to learn how your take now might differ from that of 40 yrs ago, based on wisdom or whatever, but also of course including consideration of the inevitable recrafting of your memory you likely engaged over the 40 years--a powerful phenom

like speaking with my mom about troubled times in my youth---completely different memories of the causes responses etc---as tho there is no reality after several years have passed.....

i read ass shrug only 10 years ago

[eastbound]

and saildrones are cool--til someone programs one to recognize and take out sup's in the lineup!

of course we have our programmers too...........

[Bean]

The virtue of selfishness does have it's place.  For instance, putting on your own oxygen mask before asisitng others...

SailDrones will be even more intimidating when they switch from sails to foils and solar.

[alap]

hey Admin, long time,
with your first name it would be strange if you would not like Ayn Rand
on serious note, we mostly on the same page, although I am less interested in philosophy and more in depiction of reality.
It is considered an anti utopia, but to me it is very realistic book. Those long passages (like 80 pages) is real depiction of socialism, no matter where and when (those stupid russki, who didn't know how to do it and spoiled it, or nazi germany, or cuba, chilie, venesuela, eastern europe, china, or korea or veitnam...). And I saw it with my own eyes (although I was lucky to be born in 54, one year after Stalin death, so what I see were a sunset years, when everything was rotten already, not the worst ones. And yeah I been in Eastern Europe, a paradise compared to USSR, but still a big shithole, and also heard real story from the guy who been in N.Korea, it was difficult to comprehend even for me). Written by extremely smart talented lady!

what I do not understand is why bring Trump into discussion? to me it is strange. Everything is now related to Trump?
Especially we were criticised by some by discussing Ayn Rand (a writer or /and philosopher) on Saildrones topic (and it was not me who brought  her !! - although I agree it was me who  called out this "idiot" comment but this is only because I am dumb and / or manipulative, and yes calling an opponent names has nothing to do with personal attack. Of course! Some are more equal than others...)

but since you did....
Trump didn't run against the Ayn Rand's characters. So not sure why to compare.
Voters had to choose.
First he run against Jeb, the brother of W, you know the nukular guy, who looked Putin into his ass and saw a KGB eyes that couldn't lie, the guy who coined the meme about "religion of peace", literally next day after 9/11, on 9/12
Then he run against the Hil, not entirely an altruist or a role model for honesty and principle. Sure, she didn't file a bankruptcy even once, but did she produce or create anything?

And yes, SailDrones rule!

[Califoilia]

but since you did....
Trump didn't run against the Ayn Rand's characters. So not sure why to compare.
Voters had to choose.
First he run against Jeb, the brother of W, you know the nukular guy, who looked Putin into his ass and saw a KGB eyes that couldn't lie, the guy who coined the meme about "religion of peace", literally next day after 9/11, on 9/12
Then he run against the Hil, not entirely an altruist or a role model for honesty and principle. Sure, she didn't file a bankruptcy even once, but did she produce or create anything?

Does this help answer your question?.....

The difference between a democracy and a dictatorship is that in a democracy you vote first and take orders later; in a dictatorship you don't have to waste your time voting.

Trump wasn't the first, he's just not shy about bringing that to our full attention now....which has some stunned, panicked, and screaming about it for the first time.