Author Topic: SailDrone  (Read 7011 times)

PonoBill

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 23403
    • View Profile
Re: SailDrone
« Reply #30 on: July 17, 2018, 09:05:58 AM »
I've read everything Ayn Rand wrote, hell of a writer, but IMHO she wandered off the tracks. Your post, on the other hand, leaves me itching for a blue pencil. How much more bankrupt is "real bankrupt". I understand the Marxist claim, but the notion that we didn't build the infrastructure we benefit from is hardly unique to Marx. If you don't understand that reality you're unlikely to be able to create anything complex.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

alap

  • Sunset Status
  • ****
  • Posts: 356
    • View Profile
Re: SailDrone
« Reply #31 on: July 23, 2018, 02:42:30 PM »
oh yeah, "your post blahblahblah... yadayada..."

of course! make it personal! standard operational procedure!

goes even better: "if you don't understand reality..."

of course - you arguing with someone who doesn't understands reality, ... sure...

and silently moving a goalpost about a mile away from what I said, and most importantly what you had said.

How about being focused and staying on Ayn Rand, whom you called "an idiot" - do I quote you correctly?

Yeah you may be read everything but did you understand? Or it is enough just to say that "she wandered of the tracks" - end of story! end of discussion... PonoBill says so... must be so...

Regardless here is her interview. 
In my view an interview with a very very very very smart and bright lady. (I first wrote, much smarter lady than the PonoBill, but then I crossed it out, not to go personal - so I am trying, trying really hard :) )
Lets forget first 15 minutes, philosophy, objectivism....
But starting at 15:00 where exactly did she "wander of the tracks"  ?
(the interview is 40 years old, but it appears she talks today)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAFKnfN4bfk&feature=youtu.be

And if you decide to answer and defend your "idiot" point, please refrain of discussing me. It is not about me. It is about you calling her an "idiot".
Or "wandering off the tracks".

So go ahead, starting at 15:00 pls. point to at least to a single statement that is "idiotic", kindly :)
Just to prove your point.

Or alternatively please take back your "idiot" and  "wandering of the track" comments.
Thank you.

« Last Edit: July 23, 2018, 03:04:24 PM by alap »

Bean

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 4086
    • View Profile
Re: SailDrone
« Reply #32 on: July 23, 2018, 08:13:33 PM »
Now that's a good rant right there! ;D

PonoBill

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 23403
    • View Profile
Re: SailDrone
« Reply #33 on: July 23, 2018, 09:34:11 PM »
Yup. Good thing he was able to refrain from being personal.

I consider Objectivism to be a ridiculous and dangerous philosophy. That's my opinion. There's nothing to retract.

And by the way, my use of the word "You" in that statement "If you don't understand that reality you're unlikely to be able to create anything complex." is intended as second person plural--not referring to you individually. If you like, you could translate that as "If people don't understand that reality they're unlikely to create anything complex."

I'm hardly the only person that considers Ayn Rand to be an idiot. Google "Critique of Ayn Rand" and find a million articles, from the scholarly to the sophomoric. The first results that pops up is "The Virtue of Stupidity: A Critique of Ayn Rand and Objectivism." Go bitch at him.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2018, 09:58:37 PM by PonoBill »
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

alap

  • Sunset Status
  • ****
  • Posts: 356
    • View Profile
Re: SailDrone
« Reply #34 on: July 23, 2018, 11:12:05 PM »
oh yeah your use of "Your post, on the other hand, leaves me itching for a blue pencil.." - it is also is a second person plural, nothing personal of course.
Are you totally honest? or just pretend ?

and thank you very much for explaining to me the intricacy of second person plural, it so subtle, and gentle - but do you really think I don't know this? or you trying to make another personal touch? like with a blue pencil...

and again, why suddenly you move to objectivism?
from "you haven't build it" straight to objectivism.
Is n't it moving a goalpost again? can't stay focused?

and specifically , I said first 15 minutes in this interview is philosophy, Objectivism, lets not touch it...
lets talk about second half after 15:00, the part that more or less deals with "you haven't build it", that you are so proud of...
staying within the frame of discussion is difficult, I understand...

whatever - but  "Objectivism is ridiculious and dangerous philosophy" but marxism is OK for you??

do you understand the difference? Like how many humans were killed by this dangerous philosophy (objectivism, that is)?
And how many hundreds of millions by marxists of all different varieties, from international socialists (aka commis) to national socialists (aka nazis)

Go bitch more on objectivism. Google (aka goolag) is a great help. Lots of scholars with that kind of ideas... majority rules! Like 500 years ago majority was thinking that the Earth is flat and in the centre of Universe.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2018, 11:19:35 PM by alap »

eastbound

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 2951
    • View Profile
Re: SailDrone
« Reply #35 on: July 24, 2018, 09:10:53 AM »
i put several hours into reading atlas shrugged and the fountainhead--dont care to waste 30 mins on some interview that impressed you (2nd person singular)--not surprising to those who know me, my hours of reading and my intellectual underpinnings were all i needed to conclude that:


ayn rand is total garbage

and 30 seconds of reading drivel here informs clearly that you are one angry ayn rander---succeed much? or are your failings all about you?

and no prob that she's your heroine--but you gotta handle it better that many disagree with you
« Last Edit: July 24, 2018, 09:17:51 AM by eastbound »
Portal Barra 8'4"
Sunova Creek 8'7"
Starboard Pro Blue Carbon  8'10"
KeNalu Mana 82, xTuf, ergoT

alap

  • Sunset Status
  • ****
  • Posts: 356
    • View Profile
Re: SailDrone
« Reply #36 on: July 24, 2018, 12:12:24 PM »
this is getting nasty... and personal against me...
now "I am a failure"... may be.
But for your info - I run away from Soviet Union, when I was 37
I came to North America absolutely legally with working visa, working and paying my taxes from day one, so yeah, I am an immigrant (completely legally with many years of queue and legal work), not an undocumented alien
And yes for the last 27 years I try to assimilate every day.
And yes I have an accent and I am sure it is visible when I write, not only when I speak.
And I consider North America is a god blessed paradise, simply a miracle, and unlike you guys I have Thanksgiving dinner every single day. Because I don't take it for granted.
And what I see more and more everyday - is exactly what driven me away from USSR.
(like on surfing forum bringing Ayn Rand literally from nowhere and calling her names - and yeah Bill I think you forgot "feckless" in front of "idiot" - this would be more in tune with the times, mob will like it, and they will laugh, oh how funny!)
I do see the trend and unlike you guys I saw your future. You don't know what you asking for, I saw it with my own eyes.
I just have some experience that you don't , that s all. In fact I have incomparably more experience than you. Not a good one, but it "enriches" me :)

I am financially independent, practically retired (oh I forgot to say that when I arrived I had couple thousand dollars and my son had a broken leg in the cast with obviously no insurance)
Do I have to list my education level for you? Suffice to say it is high enough.
I learned SUPing 11 years ago, when it was in the infancy, no lessons, just learned completely by myself - we just bought an oceanfront condo (I guess I am not a total failure ?) and so it happened

Am I am a failure? Perhaps. But this is not for someone who knows nothing about the stranger from the Internet to say. On another hand if he had invested 30 minutes into Atlas Shrugged, he can say anything he wants - personally I will ignore it.

regardless, on the subject - Bill there are only two possible alternatives.
Everything in between somehow gravitates to one of those.

The first option: freedom, individualism, economic prosperity, personal responsibility, choice, pursuit of happiness, ...

option number two: you haven't build it, collectivism, guilt trip for the simple fact of your existence (second person plural), economic misery, no freedom, no choice, and in some cases no toilet paper.

in fact everything in between somehow gravitates to one of those, correlation 100%
like I can give you recent examples - transgender toilets, inclusion, diversity, multiculti, "free stuff", carbon taxes - guess what option those additions gravitate to.



ninja tuna

  • Peahi Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 533
    • View Profile
Re: SailDrone
« Reply #37 on: July 24, 2018, 02:13:39 PM »

PonoBill

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 23403
    • View Profile
Re: SailDrone
« Reply #38 on: July 24, 2018, 04:31:13 PM »
I'm guessing that you choose not to understand Eastbound's comment about failure, which is not a personal attack. By Ayn Rand's criteria I am a failure, so is anyone who doesn't achieve the objectivist tenets. I frequently act altruistically, so I'm a fool, being manipulated by the weak. Complete failure.

We're not going to get anywhere debating this. Here's a question for you: Given that president Trump could easily be the hero of an Ayn Rand novel (I'm not sure whether he's John Galt or Howard Roark), what do you think of him sucking up to Putin?

Just to give you a placemarker, it might help to understand that my political views are classically conservative, would be Libertarian if only there weren't so many nuts in that box of crackerjacks. You seem to think I'm a liberal, which would send my liberal friends into hysterical laughter. I would be an ideal candidate for Ayn Rand's views if it weren't for some deep flaws that seem very obvious to me. One of them is the view you repeat, that there are only two possible alternatives. I'm wondering what universe that might be true in. The United States, which you so obviously admire, is built on a foundation that absolutely refutes that.

Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

alap

  • Sunset Status
  • ****
  • Posts: 356
    • View Profile
Re: SailDrone
« Reply #39 on: July 24, 2018, 05:37:24 PM »
now you want me to comment on Trump?
hahahahaha

reminds me how CNN host innocently asked Huckabee in one of the earliest debate to comment on him...
hahahahaha

but notice, just notice - so you choose not to answer my direct Qs but asks yours.
And how subtle, from Ayn Rand to Trump and Putin. wow

the only thing I agree with is: "We're not going to get anywhere debating this"

but here is what I say  - I think nothing about Trump and Putin. Because there is nothing there there
Trump is Putin's nightmare - cheap oil, sanctions, strong America, economic boom, strong military, personally unpredictable guy.
Putin was rooting for her - all her emails available, the paths like half a mil for Bill for the hour delivering words of wisdom, or Uranium one are well established, no punishment for wars in Georgia, Ukraine and Crimea - all in his interests, why change it? Withdrawals from defence systems in Eastern Europe - what not to like?? Plus no oil production in North America, so oil prices are going up....

all of those are hard facts, not the spin from TV talking heads, he says, she says....

Last thing. I never met a real altruist who thinks of himself as altruist. Bill, sorry if you think you are an altruist - sorry to pee on your parade, you are not. Of course it is so self flattering to think about ourselves in such a virtuous terms...

And Atlas Shrugged is not about altruism. As I said, leave this "very dangerous philosophy - Objectivism" aside.
Keep the scope to the one you had set yourself: "You haven't build it" and Ayn Rand is a "feckless idiot". Oh you didn't said feckless, just an "idiot".
Ok you never answered why exactly is she an "idiot".

So... feel free to ask any Qs but first clarify in which exactly way she is an "idiot".
See when you choose not to answer, it is an answer in itself - you can't answer, but you dont have a courage to admit your bad.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2018, 05:41:56 PM by alap »

alap

  • Sunset Status
  • ****
  • Posts: 356
    • View Profile
Re: SailDrone
« Reply #40 on: July 26, 2018, 11:21:02 AM »
‎Bill!"
No answer.
"Bill!"
No answer.
"What's gone with that boy, I wonder? You Bill!"

BTW, this book is probably prohibited by now (at least censored), too racist and xenophobic, and not much altruism expressed...

speaking about altruism...
was Henry Ford an altruist? Bill Gates? may be Steve Jobs :) ?... Edison may be :) ?...
endless list - but those are the people who moved civilisation forward...

or a bit closer to Earth... the endodontist another day who had redone my old root canal and that cost me few grand (my dental is through the roof this year), to whom I am eternally grateful, is he is an altruist ?... Or the companies that build the equipment he used, from CT scan that lasted about 10 seconds (only ten!) to the drills and microscopes - those are not totally altruistic. (God forbid if they were!!!)

I mean for 10,000 years is the altruism what moved progress forward ?
Really? not the build in instinct to care for yourself because no one else would?
Like even 100 ... 200 years ago to care for yourself to not to die from the hunger?
or today  to care for yourself, because of your kids, retirement and the urgent necessity to buy a new board, a paddle, a sail or skis? because if not you than who??

I mean - altruism is an engine of progress? Really?

and BTW have you ever been on receiving end of this altruism?
I mean certainly there are friends, and acts of kindness and I was lucky to know what it is...

but on systemic level? so, about receiving end.. I was in NY, NY the most progressive and supposedly altruistic place... about 30 years ago..
the single drop of altruism woulda go a very very long way helping me.
The help from all those multiple agencies and societies and charitable foundations that I had received - is absolute zero!
Negative in fact, if you amount the time I had spent contacting those. Plus a doze of humiliation must I say.

The only help I got was from my employer - I worked 12..14 hours a day writing the code, and I was not paid much, because he was not an altruist.
But again I eternally grateful to him.
And whatever I saved went to my immigration lawyer (definitely not an altruist)

Please convince me that altruism is so important and our civilisation wouldn't exist without it.
Please show me, again on systemic level, that altruism has any significant role in the progress.
And then explain why did you call an "idiot" the lady whose only crime/mistake/error was in her philosophy that does not hail this altruism.
This doesn't bode well with conservative / libertarian views? or does it?

because calling her an "idiot" is what started this.

Bean

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 4086
    • View Profile
Re: SailDrone
« Reply #41 on: July 26, 2018, 11:54:37 AM »
Alap, you might never get to your answer because in order to do so you would first have to agree on the definition of altruism.

That definiton is somewhat nebulous but we do know that we (most) come into this world "wired" for empathy (and that's a good start). ;D

Zooport

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 3531
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: SailDrone
« Reply #42 on: July 26, 2018, 02:20:29 PM »
..
« Last Edit: July 26, 2018, 02:23:00 PM by Zooport »
8'6 Soul Compass
9'1 Sunova Creek
9'6 WaveStorm SUP
9'8 Starboard Element

alap

  • Sunset Status
  • ****
  • Posts: 356
    • View Profile
Re: SailDrone
« Reply #43 on: July 26, 2018, 02:43:55 PM »
yes Bean, definitions are important, but altruism and empathy are very different
As for the fact that "most" are wired in with empathy.... I'd say "no". I'd say "some".
Some are wired quiet opposite. Like remember Borat's reaction when he is told that Pam A is an activist with PETA - "against cruelty towards animals"?
He starts to laugh, "against ??". Some think about Borat character as a satire. Yes there is some satire but mostly not - there are a lot of people like Borat in this part of a planet where  he comes from.

Regardless if empathy is wired in, where from the cruelty towards animals comes from? At the very best it is a wash (between wired in for it and wired in with something completely different)

But even if we switch from altruism to empathy - is the empathy was a foundation of survival for the last 10,000 years?
Is it the foundation that created Western Civilisation? I personally don't think so.

And again , the only reason I had started a rebellion - I can't stand Ayn Rand being called an "idiot" , especially by self described conservative. Everyone can disagree with anything, just keep civil.

yugi

  • Cortez Bank Status
  • *****
  • Posts: 2221
    • View Profile
Re: SailDrone
« Reply #44 on: July 26, 2018, 03:19:05 PM »
...

But even if we switch from altruism to empathy - is the empathy was a foundation of survival for the last 10,000 years?
Is it the foundation that created Western Civilisation? I personally don't think so.

...

A recent discovery has determined it is beer that created Western Civilization. Really! (look up Gobekli Tepe)

Beer creates empathy in me. I get all kind and happy. (well I kindof was anyway before too, but it gets better). In UK pubs it makes people hit each other in the face. Ooops, that ruined my line of reasoning. Or maybe they feel the other guy needs a fist in the face. Is that empathy?

I'm happy to have contributed to this important thread.

PS Where I'm from; Laps wear funny hats and herd reindeer. Are you a Lap? They don't need infrastructure to move the herds from island to island. Where was I?

PPS How 'bout them Saildrones, eh? Yesterday I was talking to a person who uses them! How cool is that?
« Last Edit: July 26, 2018, 03:54:42 PM by yugi »

 


SimplePortal 2.3.7 © 2008-2020, SimplePortal