Sharing Strategies from other Sports

[Eagle]

Never had any problem with that 18 dugout board or the dugout Sprint 21.5 or paddling a canoe -> so you must be really quite confused to think anything otherwise.

You should know I have no problems with any narrow board that has a low COG.  But am also a fan of surf nosed boards and deep vee boards like the Think etc.  Actually like riding all types of boards -> as tippy and weathervaning etc. are not much of a problem at all. 

[Area 10]

Yep, photofr- you must indeed be very confused.

I was one of the first people in the UK to own an UL SUP. 10 years ago or more, now. And it had a rudder.

I currently own two UL custom SUPs, and one of them is my day-to-day board.

So, no, I clearly don’t like unlimited boards at all...

And I own a Starboard Ace 14x25 Carbon. Have done for the last 3 years.

So clearly I’m not open-minded about dugouts at all, am I?

Yep. You sure are confused.

But to make it easier for you to understand, this video shows my idea of heaven on a SUP. Having watched the “downwinder” on Crete today live (the Euro Tour), with most paddlers using boards with recessed decks (although the boards with only a fairly minor recess (like the Sprint, or even the RS, JP etc) rather than full-on dugouts (like the Ace) seemed to be the thing to be on today, this vid from a few years ago looks almost quaint. It’s from the era of big surfers on big guns, before the kids on canoes took over:



I guess the reason why I like these “gun-type” boards is partly a feel thing - the same reason why, before SUP arrived, I liked longboarding, even back in the day when it was considered virtually a crime in the surfing world. Glide and footwork.

But mostly it’s because in the conditions I paddle, a dugout is a bloody hazard, unless maybe you are a supremely gifted kid with energy to burn, and a few thousand hours of practice under your belt. If you want to paddle in a dugout here, do the sensible thing and sit down in it! In *my* conditions you need to present as little area to the wind as possible. And you need a lot of rocker too. My UL DW board is extremely thin. It’s as thin as many surf SUPs - and thinner than many. It works like a charm here. Of course, if however you paddle other kinds of conditions then you may want another kind of design.

Ok so hopefully you are less confused now. I love unlimited. I own a dugout. I have used rudders and think they have their place. But the most fun for me for where I live and what I want to do is an unlimited gun-type board - and I don’t want or need a rudder (I run a 2+1 fin setup which is much more effective for hell messy conditions): I can paddle where I want to go and steer where I want to steer just fine without a rudder, and it means the deck is free for movement and standing forward it needed, and you can run more fin area, and a more firmly fixed fin, and you don’t have the maintenance and breakdown worries of a rudder.

But the conditions I DW in look very different from Dave Kalama’s!

But if you want to paddle with the kids in canoes, and make boards for them to race in the rather dull format races we seem to have ended up with (mainly) in the SUP world, then that is great. Certainly the sub-60kg paddler with a high boredom threshold should be be catered for in the SUP market, just as the 100kg+ thrill-seekers should be.

But watching the Euro Tour race I was also struck by how it seemed to me that the designs were starting to look a bit more similar. They seem to be converging on a compromise design that looks maybe a bit like the SIC RS. They don’t seem to be converging on a full-on boof-nosed dugout design, at least not in Europe. I guess it’s because our weather is so unpredictable (e.g. in today’s race in Crete there were some paddlers who were actually blown off their boards before the start in 40 knot gusts (!) and then other sections where there was almost no wind at all). There was also cross-chop and reflected swell towards the end and the heavily recessed high-sided boards looked very rolly and squirrely then. The women’s winner was struggling towards the end on a Sprint, for instance. A lesser (or perhaps older!) paddler would have been in the water. On my low volume unlimited she would have just steamed through hardly noticing it. And she wouldn’t have needed a rudder - not even one tiny little bit In other words, if she hadn’t been in a race she could have had a lot more FUN on my gun

Or, dare I say it, she’d have had more fun on my gun than your Nelo - no matter how deep your Nelo’s deck is recessed. .

Another advantage of a flat deck board is that you don’t look like Snow White’s friend Dopey after a leg amputation when paddling one Why does that matter? It matters for the same reason that prevents thousands of people from doing competitive (Olympic style) walking.

[photofr]

Yeah... people in Hawaii need to start travelling more - and def make it to the UK to see how it's done in and around the water.

Next, you are probably going to tell me that you tried a surfski, and that:
- it doesn't work in the UK - and never will.
- it most certainly isn't for older paddlers.
- heavier paddlers shouldn't even think that they could handle a ski.

Your version of "open minded" is a far stretch - but don't worry: I have the SOLUTION:
Stop reading Sharing Strategies from other Sports. Clearly, this level of venturing outside the box isn't for you.

[Area 10]

Ok well that literally doesn’t make any sense at all as an answer. But I guess it’s marginally better than you saying that I believe things I don’t.

Btw there is a surfski club not far from me. They are very skilled, and very fast. I’ve got no desire whatsoever to do it though. I like standing on boards. Despite having a wonderful clubhouse that they operate out of, and being undeniably impressive athletes to watch, I’d guess the number of people who want to try surfski round here relative to those who want to try SUP is probably about a thousand to one. People mostly want to stand up on *boards*, just like me.

Here’s an illustrative experience. Ten days ago I had just finished a paddle round a headland at my local beach, and was sitting on my board, resting. A mum and dad with a kid who must have only been about 4 or 5 came walking past. The little kid said “dad can we buy one of those things where you stand up with one of those long oar things, that looks cool”. The dad looked at the mum and then said “we already have a kayak”. The kid said, “kayaking is boring, I want to do that”.

There you have it. This is why the ICF wants to control SUP, and why stand up surfskis will never be widely popular. But by all means go ahead and build one, rudder and all. You can tell the rest of the world what they are missing as you zoom past, all alone. And then you can Olympic walk home, and tell people as you pass them on the pavement how much faster they could be if they only walked like you.

SUP has never been about speed. It’s almost comically slow. It’s all about feel, simplicity, freedom, accessibility and versatility. You lose a lot of those things once you build a stand up canoe. People want to be able to get to the fun bit FAST, and easily, and and not to be constrained physically or have to invest scores of hours in learning a sport before they can get off the starting blocks. This is why the whole world is buying inflatables - sales in Europe of inflatables is more than 10 to 1 in favour of inflatables - which are NOT dugouts.

But you are clearly a singular individual with an almost unique vision. So I wish you the best of luck in your quest to build a stand up surfski or stand-up Olympic canoe. Get in touch with Jim Terrell, he probably knows just the people to build you one, and he and his wife have always been incredibly helpful when I’ve contacted them. Maybe if you built one with a seat in it as well, you could persuade some of your surf ski colleagues to try standing up to paddle. I’m guessing that that will appeal to them about as much as surfski appeals to the average SUPer. But who knows? It’s gotta be worth a try.

[photofr]

Funny thing there - for sure!

Here's a complete different take on it: simpler though...
"With the sheer number of people starting this very simplistic sport (SUP) - we are seeing a record number of new surfski participants" so thank you for that.

Here's a quick list of who's onboard with the above statement:
The USA
Finland
France
Denmark
Portugal
Italy
and even SPAIN, out of all things.

[ukgm]

Funny thing there - for sure!

Here's a complete different take on it: simpler though...
"With the sheer number of people starting this very simplistic sport (SUP) - we are seeing a record number of new surfski participants" so thank you for that.

Here's a quick list of who's onboard with the above statement:
The USA
Finland
France
Denmark
Portugal
Italy
and even SPAIN, out of all things.

What's your source for this claim ? Again, you're creating another strawman argument. You keep moving the argument to points the forum isn't actually debating or disagreeing with you on.

[ukgm]

You are just arguing with yourself, photofr.

I’ll say it YET AGAIN.

No-one is arguing that you couldn’t make a surfski you could stand on for SUP.

And no-one is arguing with the proposition that a lowered standing area gives extra stability.

But I wouldn’t buy a board like that because it wouldn’t work for what I want to do.

The Jim Terrell vid that Eagle posted is very good. Isn’t that pretty much exactly the board you’d like to have (in a wider version), photography? Great. Get one made. But it would suck for what I want a board to do.

^This.

This is the answer to the debate right here. Anything else is just perpetuating a disagreement for the sake of it.

[photofr]

Funny thing there - for sure!

Here's a complete different take on it: simpler though...
"With the sheer number of people starting this very simplistic sport (SUP) - we are seeing a record number of new surfski participants" so thank you for that.

Here's a quick list of who's onboard with the above statement:
The USA
Finland
France
Denmark
Portugal
Italy
and even SPAIN, out of all things.

What's your source for this claim ? Again, you're creating another strawman argument. You keep moving the argument to points the forum isn't actually debating or disagreeing with you on.

I am now a retired rep for Nelo. Upon taking the job, I questioned everything, including talking shop with many people in different areas of the World. When it comes to surfski paddling, the USA is currently booming and really flourishing. Finland is quiet, but make no mistakes about it... they are selling surfskis like donuts (and a huge rise there too). France has never received as many skis before - judging from Nelo, Carbonology, Okrea, and even Epic.

That may be another straw man argument to you, but a hell of a better argument than: "I heard the kid on the street say that he didn't like kayaks". Mouhaaaaaa aaaaaah   ahhhhh.

[photofr]

You are just arguing with yourself, photofr.

I’ll say it YET AGAIN.

No-one is arguing that you couldn’t make a surfski you could stand on for SUP.

And no-one is arguing with the proposition that a lowered standing area gives extra stability.

But I wouldn’t buy a board like that because it wouldn’t work for what I want to do.

The Jim Terrell vid that Eagle posted is very good. Isn’t that pretty much exactly the board you’d like to have (in a wider version), photography? Great. Get one made. But it would suck for what I want a board to do.

^This.

This is the answer to the debate right here. Anything else is just perpetuating a disagreement for the sake of it.

My take on it:
And no-one is arguing with the proposition that a lowered standing area gives extra stability.
Sure, you are not arguing directly the lower standing area, but you don't want to see one - even though you have never tried one on a SUP. Either way, it's not appealing to you - and I'll take that!

But I wouldn’t buy a board like that because it wouldn’t work for what I want to do.
You do realise that only 2, 3 or 4 of you guys are bluntly stating that such a setup wouldn't work for you or what you want to do. Either way, I'll accept that too. In fact, it would have been a whole lot easier to hear that from you from the beginning of this discussion and, let others provide feedback and SHARE additional strategies from other sports. The few who are arguing ideas that are you ideas seemingly a very few - compared to the sheer numbers of views here.

Anyway, it's a bit sad - because some of you are open minded, but some are just a little too closed minded. It's like stating that the UK is the only place on Earth that gets wind, backwash, and/or current.
You think Hawaii doesn't have those? But what about Portugal, or France?

Seemingly, a statement like "dugout boards" are not yet fashionable in the UK - may seem more accurate.

[ukgm]

Funny thing there - for sure!

Here's a complete different take on it: simpler though...
"With the sheer number of people starting this very simplistic sport (SUP) - we are seeing a record number of new surfski participants" so thank you for that.

Here's a quick list of who's onboard with the above statement:
The USA
Finland
France
Denmark
Portugal
Italy
and even SPAIN, out of all things.

What's your source for this claim ? Again, you're creating another strawman argument. You keep moving the argument to points the forum isn't actually debating or disagreeing with you on.

I am now a retired rep for Nelo. Upon taking the job, I questioned everything, including talking shop with many people in different areas of the World. When it comes to surfski paddling, the USA is currently booming and really flourishing. Finland is quiet, but make no mistakes about it... they are selling surfskis like donuts (and a huge rise there too). France has never received as many skis before - judging from Nelo, Carbonology, Okrea, and even Epic.

That may be another straw man argument to you, but a hell of a better argument than: "I heard the kid on the street say that he didn't like kayaks". Mouhaaaaaa aaaaaah   ahhhhh.

Put some figures on it. 'Booming' is relative. I can pull up a few race results from many other countries but apart from the marquee events, it's still niche. This is all irrelevant though as none of us were interested in how buoyant surfskiing was as a sport. You're going off on a tangent again that has nothing to do with what people were debating. This thread was about the value of some characteristics of surf ski designs being adopted by SUP manufacturers. You'll find dugout's aren't that popular over here as:

1) The racing market is comparably small compared to SUP sales in general.
2) Most people in Continental Europe live inland (which skews the type and nature of paddling they'll likely do).
3) The majority of paddlers are recreational and dug outs are a specialized design. There are obvious marketing reasons why boof nosed all rounders appear to be selling well. It's not about absolute fastest, it's about day to day practicality and flexibility for many people.

I should add that my own approach flies in the face of all of this and I'll use whatever is fastest for the races I do. I'm not letting my decisions being driven by a marketing department but I know full well I'm not themain SUP market.

[stoneaxe]

Photo...I appreciate your passion but the bottom line is that not enough people like boards designed like canoes. Maybe that will change with impassioned debate but I doubt it. Surfski sales has nothing to do with Surfski like SUPs. I've thought about getting a Surfski….I don't want to stand up in it.

[photofr]

I guess we can look at the whole dugout (canoe look) with different point of views.

1. Clearly, not everyone like the look (especially people in the UK - perhaps).
2. Many people in the States didn't like them at first. The same is true for most of Europe. Heck, people who didn't like dugout boards called the ACE names - something to do with flowers and planting
3. The reality is that today, seemingly MORE people are taking a liking to ACE-TYPE boards. Heck, the idea has been copied many times over.

So, I ask myself why should I even continue to share newer ideas, if you guys aren't up to speed with the current ideas?
(as in: why should I shared some new functionality to board design, when the ACE hasn't been adopted by the 3 or 4 people who comment here?)

[stoneaxe]

OK...nevermind. Everyone here is ignorant of what's happening in the SUP world except for a few impassioned canoe enthusiasts......

[SaMoSUP]

Dugout boards would become real popular in LA lineups if people brought six packs with them. Here comes the beer SUP!

[Bean]

So, I ask myself why should I even continue to share newer ideas, if you guys aren't up to speed with the current ideas?

I for one, would double-dog dare you to not share any ideas for the next 1/2 hour

Toss me a beer SaMo!