Author Topic: Sharing Strategies from other Sports  (Read 40325 times)

ukgm

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Re: Sharing Strategies from other Sports
« Reply #120 on: May 24, 2018, 05:40:50 AM »
1) ukgm- are you sure your agenda in arguing against very narrow race boards wasn’t that if they are allowed it was going to be impossible for *you* to win at a high level? Whenever I see currently active competitors advocating a particular rule, it’s funny how often that rule benefits them personally...

2) Sadly, ukgm, despite you being an ultra-fit semi-pro (or perhaps in some ways even pro) sportsperson, you are soon going to be getting your butt kicked by 15 year-old girls.

3) So maybe ask the kids what they would like their races and equipment to be like, instead of having competitive old men setting the agenda.


1) I think it's fair to call me out on bias. However, the answer is no. It's purely that a fair proportion of my PhD addressed similar issues in athletics (and I've published journal papers in this area) so its honestly a case that I'm aware of the philosophical issues that technology can create. I should also add that I've worked with governing bodies internationally (in both cycling & athletics - particularly the Oscar Pistorius case in '08) to try and deal with technology driven problems and regulation. Personally, I'm actually pro technology.

2) That's fine with me. I only class myself as a very fit age grouper.  SUP is a second sport for me so I'm pretty relaxed about it (conversely, I'm extremely secretive and obsessive about my cycling). I had another SUP video go out today on SUPboarder mag but you wouldn't see me do that with my cycling.

3) I would disagree because I believe that a sports success and future should lie with mass participation. Handing control of technological decision making to those who are not the thicker end of the wedge and have more honed technical skills would be a huge mistake. My solution instead would be to perform a stakeholder analysis of everyone involved. This was actually something I offered to the ISA a couple of years back for gratis but they never bothered to reply.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2018, 05:47:38 AM by ukgm »

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Re: Sharing Strategies from other Sports
« Reply #121 on: May 24, 2018, 06:51:53 AM »
You make a convincing case, ukgm.

It would be indeed interesting - perhaps even essential - to have a stakeholder analysis.

But so far the history of the development of SUP has been like herding a bunch of rather irritable cats. There is something about board-based Watersports that attracts rugged individualists. And there are just too many sub-disciplines each with their own ethos and needs for one umbrella system to work well.

I hope the racers get what they want. I really enjoy watching the elite racers live via SUP Racer etc. It’s great to learn from them - I’d rather watch them and learn from them than race against them, which would be entirely pointless and counter-productive. So as long as the coverage of the races continues to improve, I’ll stay interested in racing, even if I don’t race myself.

burchas

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Re: Sharing Strategies from other Sports
« Reply #122 on: May 24, 2018, 07:11:40 AM »
Im not sure what your point was there, photofr...

Btw, I wouldn’t call some of the boards you’ve shown above “dugouts”. They just have a fairly mildly sunken deck, which is not the same thing.

^Yes, not even close. He's actually proving the opposite point but lets not tell him, it might interfere with his reality distortion field ;D
in progress...

PonoBill

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Re: Sharing Strategies from other Sports
« Reply #123 on: May 24, 2018, 07:14:48 AM »
I helped Sonni Honsheid tie her wayward dugout onto a rental car when she came for the Olukai. It looked like a primitive dugout shaped from a single log that had been painted blue. My only thought was "better her than me". Of course, she won with the thing, but will anyone else look at that and think "I gotta get me one of those".

I don't really understand the principle. The standing position is achievable by digging out a slightly thicker than normal board. How is a dugout with higher walls an improvement on that?

The "surfski you can stand on" was achieved long ago with the Penetrators. Fast? Yes. Commercially viable? Nope. Secondary stability only. Not many people can make that work. The only person I know who liked it was Jeremy Riggs, and he doesn't count.
Foote 10'4X34", SIC 17.5 V1 hollow and an EPS one in Hood River. Foote 9'0" x 31", L41 8'8", 18' Speedboard, etc. etc.

yugi

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Re: Sharing Strategies from other Sports
« Reply #124 on: May 24, 2018, 07:49:47 AM »
...
 But perhaps it is inevitable with our sport that as we move towards the Olympics, we will end up with competitors who in age and physique resemble gymnasts.
...

Might be better than competitors that look like you or UKGM. No?

;)
</duck>

ukgm

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Re: Sharing Strategies from other Sports
« Reply #125 on: May 24, 2018, 08:19:03 AM »
I helped Sonni Honsheid tie her wayward dugout onto a rental car when she came for the Olukai. It looked like a primitive dugout shaped from a single log that had been painted blue. My only thought was "better her than me". Of course, she won with the thing, but will anyone else look at that and think "I gotta get me one of those".

I don't really understand the principle. The standing position is achievable by digging out a slightly thicker than normal board. How is a dugout with higher walls an improvement on that?

The "surfski you can stand on" was achieved long ago with the Penetrators. Fast? Yes. Commercially viable? Nope. Secondary stability only. Not many people can make that work. The only person I know who liked it was Jeremy Riggs, and he doesn't count.

The only board I saw that was left field that I really quite liked the look of was SIC's standamaran. The reality is that whilst photofr seems to give the impression we're all happy to be in the dark ages because we don't all fancy hollow rudder controlled rockets, maybe he's not thinking laterally or wildly enough  ;D

ukgm

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Re: Sharing Strategies from other Sports
« Reply #126 on: May 24, 2018, 08:21:57 AM »
...
 But perhaps it is inevitable with our sport that as we move towards the Olympics, we will end up with competitors who in age and physique resemble gymnasts.
...

Might be better than competitors that look like you or UKGM. No?

;)
</duck>

I hope not. I don't look like I suit any of the sports I do and I don't want to start looking normal now. ;D ;D ;D

Area 10

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Re: Sharing Strategies from other Sports
« Reply #127 on: May 24, 2018, 09:33:49 AM »
...
 But perhaps it is inevitable with our sport that as we move towards the Olympics, we will end up with competitors who in age and physique resemble gymnasts.
...

Might be better than competitors that look like you or UKGM. No?

;)
</duck>
You insult ukgm by categorising him alongside me! I’m just your typical blobby middle-aged man. He’s a training god who probably has muscles even on his testicles.

But you may have missed the jist of my intent here. If someone like me can even approach a decent standard - even in local races (and a coupla years ago, a couple of times I beat a load of guys who were literally less than half my age by substantial margins) then something is probably wrong. The kids SHOULD be kicking my ass. And with the right training and equipment (not boards made for middle-aged men) they will.

In some ways the reason why (some of) the oldsters can still not be embarrassed by the kids is because the oldsters have fixed the competitions to favour them. They are often very long boring grinds and don’t rely too much on balance, flexibility and agility. But is that the way it should be? Moving away from boards that wobbly old geezers like me can paddle might be part of the sport maturing.

We can still turn up and potter about or compete amongst our age peers. But let the kids do what they can do best - and would like to do.


photofr

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Re: Sharing Strategies from other Sports
« Reply #128 on: May 24, 2018, 10:48:29 AM »
@AREA:
Questions...
Do you consider the Sprint 17'6x23" a dugout board?
Do you consider the ACE GT 17'4x27" a dugout board?

If not to either (or both of them) could you explain why?
Nelo SUP - 14' x 23"
Nelo Surfski 560M - 18'4" x 17"

Califoilia

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Re: Sharing Strategies from other Sports
« Reply #129 on: May 24, 2018, 10:59:52 AM »
I helped Sonni Honsheid tie her wayward dugout onto a rental car when she came for the Olukai. It looked like a primitive dugout shaped from a single log that had been painted blue. My only thought was "better her than me". Of course, she won with the thing, but will anyone else look at that and think "I gotta get me one of those".

I don't really understand the principle. The standing position is achievable by digging out a slightly thicker than normal board. How is a dugout with higher walls an improvement on that?

The "surfski you can stand on" was achieved long ago with the Penetrators. Fast? Yes. Commercially viable? Nope. Secondary stability only. Not many people can make that work. The only person I know who liked it was Jeremy Riggs, and he doesn't count.

The only board I saw that was left field that I really quite liked the look of was SIC's standamaran. The reality is that whilst photofr seems to give the impression we're all happy to be in the dark ages because we don't all fancy hollow rudder controlled rockets, maybe he's not thinking laterally or wildly enough  ;D
Are any of you really?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VD_XnqbSJVI

 ;) ;D
Me: 6'1"/185...(2) 5'1" Kings Foil/Wing Boards...7'10 Kings DW Board...9'6" Bob Pearson "Laird Noserider"...14' Lahui Kai "Manta"...8'0" WaveStorm if/when the proning urges still hit.

Eagle

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Re: Sharing Strategies from other Sports
« Reply #130 on: May 24, 2018, 12:12:43 PM »
Even standing max aft -> this is what happens in a flooding dugout birdbath in just a smallish medium steep bump.  Not even medium large steep and deep.  Whereas proper DW surf nosed boards in bigger waves handle like a charm.  We will always go for a M14 or rudder Bullet 17.4 when conditions get big and nasty if given a choice.  So much more fun and so much easier.  In smaller conditions dugouts do work -> but are very uncomfortable to sit and rest if need be.  Hopping back on after a fall or injury in rough conditions will not be quick nor very easy.  But horses for courses as everyone has their own opinion and can make their own choice for what they want to ride on any given day.

For going less than 23 down to 21.5 that is ok with us.  Let the riders with decent balance race on those and push the new designs forward.  At some point there will be a limit.  Wider boards will still be readily available anyways for those that need more stability or more volume.  Maybe there will be less competitors at the pointy end.  But that happens.  Connor or Kai or AA are pretty lean and fit with good power to weight ratios.  That is how it should be.  To expect heavy racers with poor power to weight -> riding wide high drag boards to still be competitive at this point is really pushing it.

ukgm dropped down from a 26 Maliko to a 24.5 All Star and noticed substantial gains in speed.  He intends to drop down further next year.  That is not unusual and is expected based on what other racers are doing.  He evolved and improved his balance year over year.  To get faster you have to reduce form drag while maintaining full power.  A 27.5 Dom pushes a lot of water around it at full power.  A 21.5 Sprint simply does not.  It just goes so much faster.  Which is normal and expected.  ;)
Fast is FUN!   8)
Dominator - Touring Pintail - Bullet V2 - M14 - AS23

pdxmike

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Re: Sharing Strategies from other Sports
« Reply #131 on: May 24, 2018, 12:15:42 PM »
Are you really telling me that you have never seen (with your very own eyes) new paddlers attempt to use a SUP with a little bit of wind, struggle, and just drift away like mad?
There was a Naish demo here in Portland on the Willamette a few years ago on a day with some (not too bad) wind.  People launched from the dock at the sailing club, got caught in the wind, and a couple dozen of them ended up blown into a pocket on the shore 100 yards or so upriver.  Some of the Naish people had to paddle up there with ropes and retrieve them and the boards.
A rudder would not have helped these people. Rudders need skill to use. These people needed paddle skills most of all - and general awareness. But what would have helped more than a rudder would be to have been on a board that is relatively resistant to winds. I don’t know what boards they were on but I’d bet that is they’d all been on dugouts the problem would have been ten times worse - and some would have capsized and not been able to get back in again. If they’d had rudders, and they’d been chop, many more would have capsized. Rudders poorly used encourages broaching.

Ever watched a fat person trying to get back into an Ace, in wind and chop? Especially if wearing a pfd. If you have a big belly, or anything on your chest/belly, it becomes almost impossible. Very dangerous. For this reason alone, never mind the weathervaning, dugouts will never be good for beginners. Falling is a part of learning to SUP. And a board you can’t get back onto is a deathtrap.

But don’t take my word for it. Put a plump beginner in an Ace in windy conditions (or in any ruddered dugout) and watch what happens. Just make sure you have a solid rescue plan.
I was just recounting a time I saw beginners getting blown by the wind.  I agree--rudders aren't going to help people who can barely paddle yet, Aces would have been worse, etc.

Area 10

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Re: Sharing Strategies from other Sports
« Reply #132 on: May 24, 2018, 12:43:15 PM »
Are you really telling me that you have never seen (with your very own eyes) new paddlers attempt to use a SUP with a little bit of wind, struggle, and just drift away like mad?
There was a Naish demo here in Portland on the Willamette a few years ago on a day with some (not too bad) wind.  People launched from the dock at the sailing club, got caught in the wind, and a couple dozen of them ended up blown into a pocket on the shore 100 yards or so upriver.  Some of the Naish people had to paddle up there with ropes and retrieve them and the boards.
A rudder would not have helped these people. Rudders need skill to use. These people needed paddle skills most of all - and general awareness. But what would have helped more than a rudder would be to have been on a board that is relatively resistant to winds. I don’t know what boards they were on but I’d bet that is they’d all been on dugouts the problem would have been ten times worse - and some would have capsized and not been able to get back in again. If they’d had rudders, and they’d been chop, many more would have capsized. Rudders poorly used encourages broaching.

Ever watched a fat person trying to get back into an Ace, in wind and chop? Especially if wearing a pfd. If you have a big belly, or anything on your chest/belly, it becomes almost impossible. Very dangerous. For this reason alone, never mind the weathervaning, dugouts will never be good for beginners. Falling is a part of learning to SUP. And a board you can’t get back onto is a deathtrap.

But don’t take my word for it. Put a plump beginner in an Ace in windy conditions (or in any ruddered dugout) and watch what happens. Just make sure you have a solid rescue plan.
I was just recounting a time I saw beginners getting blown by the wind.  I agree--rudders aren't going to help people who can barely paddle yet, Aces would have been worse, etc.
Yes, I know, and I was agreeing with your point. I just phrased it clumsily. I thought you were making a good observation and was just adding to it to include the issues of rudders and dugouts. Beginners even on surf SUPs in wind is a orinlem. Beginners on dugouts with rudders would be an even bigger problem!

So for this reason, I contend (and this is aimed at photofr not you) the vast majority of SUPs will never be dugouts. Which will save SUP from becoming merely stand-up canoeing - hard luck ICF :)

stoneaxe

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Re: Sharing Strategies from other Sports
« Reply #133 on: May 24, 2018, 07:50:09 PM »
This thing is getting as bad as the Trump thread..... ;D
Bob

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pdxmike

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Re: Sharing Strategies from other Sports
« Reply #134 on: May 24, 2018, 08:37:47 PM »
ukgm- are you sure your agenda in arguing against very narrow race boards wasn’t that if they are allowed it was going to be impossible for *you* to win at a high level?

Whenever I see currently active competitors advocating a particular rule, it’s funny how often that rule benefits them personally...

This is not to say that the “Jim Terrell” prediction is wrong - I believe that we are almost there, really, with so many of the top paddlers on narrow dugouts that do not appeal at all to general public, and won’t look anything remotely like a beginner would buy as their first board. But perhaps it is inevitable with our sport that as we move towards the Olympics, we will end up with competitors who in age and physique resemble gymnasts. Or perhaps if board regulations change, they will all like look like C1 canoeists. Either way it will exclude 99.9% of the population from being competitive. Unlike soccer, for instance, where the two best players in the work (Ronaldo and Messi) are of wildly different builds, weights, and statures. THAT is what a popular, inclusive sport with a future looks like... a person who plays soccer can dream that no matter what your natural body shape, you could potentially compete at the highest level.

Sadly, ukgm, despite you being an ultra-fit semi-pro (or perhaps in some ways even pro) sportsperson, you are soon going to be getting your butt kicked by 15 year-old girls. Maybe that’s the way it is supposed to go. The sport was invented by heavy old geezers, basically. (Look at who was winning the first Battle of the Paddle or Maliko/M2O races etc.) But the kids were always going to take it over. So maybe ask the kids what they would like their races and equipment to be like, instead of having competitive old men setting the agenda. The writing is on the wall for it as a mass participation race sport anyway. Which is not to say that there can’t be mass participation *events* (ie. where most people are just doing it for fun rather than with any intention of being seriously competitive). There can and will be.

Just create a little corner for the handful of really competitive pro kids to do their thing on their weird SUP race canoes that no-one else is interested in - alongside photofr, who weighs about the same as they do ;) -and let the rest of us hang out and have a good time in the main event on the same boards we can paddle just about anywhere at the weekend or with friends. Messi and Ronaldo casually competing together, if they want to. Or just cruising along if they’d rather do that.
Your 15-year-old girl reference made me think--is it bad if racing gives an advantage to them?  More generally, women are much lighter and have better balance than men (or at least have lower centers of gravity).  Maybe the "narrow boards give lightweight men an unfair advantage over heavier men" problem (and it's a valid one) should be rephrased as, "allowing narrow boards helps put women on a more equal footing with men". 

I think one of the reasons distance running got popular for the masses was that women are more equal to men in distance running than in most other sports, so distance running races could attract women participants more so than sports that reward qualities such as raw strength that men are much better at.

At least here in Portland, it seems there are as many (or more) women paddling than men outside of racing.  The percentage of men in races is higher here than in general paddling, but racing is still popular with women.  Fiona Wilde just won a Gorge Performance race here (overall winner) beating some very good men.  It seems like if racing is going to survive, maybe the focus should be on attracting the many women who already paddle.  I'd think the idea of racing on fast 14' boards that women can handle better than many men would be a lot more attractive than forcing 110 lb. women to race (barge-like for them) boards that are prohibited by race rules from being narrower than the ones 170 lb. men can handle.

Even large women paddlers fall into the "lightweight" category of people who can comfortably paddle narrow boards.   Allowing narrow boards in racing makes it tough for medium-or-heavier men, but it could make racing more attractive to the female half of the population.  Even though racing divisions are typically by gender, it still seems that women like participating in sports (distance running, swimming...) where they're on a more equal footing with men.

Going back to the original topic of the thread, then maybe this leads to heavier men who want to compete in races turning to the long, dugout boards and becoming a large enough group that races accommodate them.  Or maybe races never will accommodate them, and they just race for fun, knowing they're too heavy to be competitive. Or they skip racing, but for every heavy man who leaves racing due to the boards not favoring them, 2 or 3 women start racing due to that same boards working well for them.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2018, 08:41:54 PM by pdxmike »

 


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